Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Maybe...

First- Not all of us can afford a really good amp.

Second- A good clean amp with an exceptional pedal is going to sound great.

Third- The tone that is considered to be the best tone ever was recorded with stock marshalls, stock Fender's and maybe some Hiwatts. Not Two Rocks, Fuchs, or Dumbles.

Someone wise once said...

So long as people still think that the best Les Paul/Marshall tone ever was Jimmy Page playing a Telecaster into a supro I will question anyones judgment on what sounds best.

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

jgalvan8804 wrote:

First- Not all of us can afford a really good amp.

I can't, too big_smile

jgalvan8804 wrote:

Second- A good clean amp with an exceptional pedal is going to sound great.

That's right, too.

jgalvan8804 wrote:

Third- The tone that is considered to be the best tone ever was recorded with stock marshalls, stock Fender's and maybe some Hiwatts. Not Two Rocks, Fuchs, or Dumbles.

Thats maybe your personal opinion - at the other side, for example, why do you think, an original dumble amp costs about 20.000 - 30.000(?) $ - and is nevertheless played by very many famous guitarrists?
And another point: e.g. Hendrix used a few more Marshalls than I could afford...

Here are my tabbed songs by "Smokin' Joe": http://www.jbonamassa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7236
I LIKE MUSIC! big_smile big_smile big_smile

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Right but Jimi's Marshalls were Mostly stock.  They were modified slightly. 

My point is that this argument is stupid.  I said in another post that TONE is not one mountian peak we all try to get up on.  Tone is a mountian chain that has thousands of peaks. And thank god because the Marshall guys will never impress me with their tone. The Two Rock crowd can have them. 

There are so many great Tones out there to say Amp tone is better is pointless.  It depends on who's listening.

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

jgalvan8804 wrote:

My point is that this argument is stupid.

Everyone is stepping around my original question:

Is a distortion pedal mechanically DIFFERENT than a gain channel on a tube amp?

I'm not talking about natural distortion from turning it up all the way... I'm talking about the gain knob or specific distortion channel built into the amp. I really could care less about sound preferences of the two, I just want to know about what the guts and wiring consists of in a tube amp's distortion channel, if it's identical to a distortion pedal - only built into the amp (or not).

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Did you ever get an answer?

The guy who makes Carol Ann amps would know this answer. He has very strong opinions about these matters so all I'd say is prepare for the typical amp overdrive is god...Pedals are the devil. 

But technically speaking he probably knows. I cant recall his name.  I think it Dan or something. Corby from Ocean EFX may know the pedal side of things. His name is OCEAN here on the forum.

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

Everyone is stepping around my original question:

Is a distortion pedal mechanically DIFFERENT than a gain channel on a tube amp?

I just want to know about what the guts and wiring consists of in a tube amp's distortion channel, if it's identical to a distortion pedal - only built into the amp (or not).

Hey!

    To answer thie question, I'd say "both".

    There are different circuits, and they can all do similar things. Some are Solid State, some are Tube, some are a mix of both.

    Some are in Pedal form. And some are built into an Amplifier.

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
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25 (edited by Knotins 2009-01-27 00:30:27)

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Im back and again ready to throw in my hat on the subject.

IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GAIN ON AN AMP AND A "DISTORTION PEDAL"

They are essentially the same and largely built with the same components and have the same effect.

Some pedals use a tube such as the 12ax7 that you will find in most all tube amps gain stage, most pedals use no tubes relying on hard electronics alone, some amps have no tubes (Solid State), (Mosfet) in their preamplifiers gain stage.

Distortion pedals are the preamp gain stage recreated with generally more control over the gain with level, tone and gain and luckily are made to create different qualities of gain that appeal differently to our ears. The gain stage on the amp is fixed and what you got cant be as easily switched out as a pedal.

There is a slight difference order that the pedal is processed in front of the amp as opposed to the gain stage in your preamp.

If you value your hearing and want the amp to break up without a pedal at tolerable levels there is no replacement for a tube preamp with gain, it is what the pedals are attempting to create. And as an added bonus you can still put your tubescreamer or whatever in front of the amp to push it even harder when you need it.

Not easy to answer because to many this is a subject of what is appealing to the player and much simpler to address if we were comparing a specific amp to a specific pedal due to all the differences between equipment. I personally play through three amps all that react very differently in how they are designed to operate and im still experimenting in search of the ever elusive tone, but im getting close.

DISCLAIMER: THE OPINIONS REPRESENTED HERE SHOULD BE TAKEN WITH A GRAIN OF SALT AS THE AUTHOR HAS BEEN REPUTED AS BEING FULL OF CRAP AND WOULD SELL HIS SOUL FOR A GOOD BOTTLE OF TEQUILA.

26 (edited by Carol-Ann_Amps 2009-01-28 07:47:58)

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

jgalvan8804 wrote:

Did you ever get an answer?

The guy who makes Carol Ann amps would know this answer. He has very strong opinions about these matters so all I'd say is prepare for the typical amp overdrive is god...Pedals are the devil. 

But technically speaking he probably knows. I cant recall his name.  I think it Dan or something. Corby from Ocean EFX may know the pedal side of things. His name is OCEAN here on the forum.

Actually I like both and often combine the two together.

My TS808 goes everywhere with me and I love how that thing works with an already overdriven amp for just giving you that little mid bump and the extra compression for solos.
I've never understood the 'flat mid mod' because the boost of those frequencies are what that pedal does best.

I have yet to find any overdrive pedal that can generate an overdrive tone on its own as harmonically complex as what you can get with an amp, but as I said above I do love an 808 driving in to an already overdriven amp for certain tones. The key is to keep the OD level lower and the output level higher to drive the first stage of the amp hard. Pretty sure Joe will probably run his TS like this to.

Joes overdrive tones come from running the amps hard with varying amounts of power tube overdrive hence the barky and very fluid tones. One of his overdriven rhythm tones ironically comes from the 'clean' channel of the EL34 JB-100 driven pretty hard in to saturation. He uses a nice balance of preamp and power amp overdrive. His lead tone uses the OD channel of a 6L6 JB-100 (in the US) where there is a little more preamp gain but still with a good balance of power tube OD. Both of these tones are blended with the Jub that is set with a reasonable amount of overdrive.
From what I remember of his settings, the 808 is probably used when more compression is required.

Bottom line, most Distortion/OD pedals are designed to emulate the sound of an overdriven tube amp and will always fall short of a good quality tube amp designed well. I won't bore you with the technicalities as to why.
But an overdrive pedal used correctly with an already distorted amp can most definately be used to enhance the feel and the color of the overdrive tone generated by the amp.
There's a place for both in most rigs !!!

Alan Phillips,
Carol-Ann Custom Amplifiers, LLC

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Alan thanks for the post...
I didnt mean to over simplify what your response would be.  You stated in an earlier thread something about how you'll only get good overdrive from a amp.  I cant recall the context.  Anyhow you cleared that up.

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

I absolutely agree with Carol-Ann_Amps, there is nothing better than boosting an already overdriven amp with an overdrive / booster pedal. But at the end of the day this all depends on your personal taste.
I like the sound of my (modded) Marshall JCM 900. The clean channel has a nice crunch when driven hard with a Marshall BluesBreaker II set to boost mode and the so called High Gain channel sounds even better and is perfect for solos.

-------------------------------------------------------
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Marshall JVM 210H, Marshall JCM 900, Hughes&Kettner Statesman Dual EL34   
Blackstar HT Dual, Fulltone OCD, Dunlop Cry Baby, Marshall Blues Breaker, Boss GE 7

29 (edited by Rocket 2009-01-30 14:45:44)

Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

You have to AMPLIFY to get OVERDRIVE.  You have to amplify the overdrive to get DISTORTION (even thought "it"-overdrive, already is distortion-only one form of distortion).  Like getting from point A to B with an automobile, you can take different routes to get where you want to go....
Oh yeah, tubes and transistors are both diodes....
Confused?! lol  DOH! Just crank what you got!



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