1 Topic by NPB_EST.1979 (edited by NPB_EST.1979 2009-01-22 00:13:18)

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Topic: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

I've always carried a value that an amp you buy should have a killer clean tone and one of these two: awesome overdrive or awesome distortion (heavy). Inevitably, that amp and its latter quality would be accompanied by the opposite (distortion or overdrive) in the form of a pedal.

Just recently, I've been told that I'm one of the only guys that uses the amp's onboard gain/overdrive channels. The person I was talking to has both an overdrive and a distortion pedal - a concept he always viewed as the norm.

SO HERE's my question.

1.What is the difference between the gain channel on a tube amp, and an overdrive or distortion pedal?

2. I always assumed the gain channel in the amp had more to do with the preamp tubes (I have 5 12Ax7A's in my Rivera) and a pedal is a solid state distortion (unless it has a preamp tube in the pedal) going through a clean amp. Am I correct on this concept or just completely off my rocker?

3. Are onboard gain channels waning in popularity because of pedals?


crazythingimnotabigfanofdisortionpedalswhenyoucangetthatinagoodamp

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  • Registered: 2007-11-04
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

I like this thread. 

There may be tons of differences as the Carol Ann guy will point out.

It really makes no difference. If you get a good overdrive pedal it can break up a tube amp just as good if not better than an overdrive channel.

The purists will tell you to just turn up your amp.

I have found some great pedals... Barber, Ocean EFX and Fulltone, Lovepedal, analog man... that would rival the best overdrive channels.

Of course thats just what my ear hears. 

Cant wait to hear the real differences.

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

1.What is the difference between the gain channel on a tube amp, and an overdrive or distortion pedal?

The very great overdrive of an amp you will only get by turning up the power amplifier, but thats, especially if you use an amplifier with more then 5 watts output ( wink ), very LOOOUUUDD!

The "normal" great amp overdrive you can get with using the overdrive channel of your amp - but I don't know, how this overdrive is produced.

With a pedal, you can overdrive your amp although he is only whispering...

So I think the amp overdrive is the best overdrive you can get, but that's only my opinion.


NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

Just recently, I've been told that I'm one of the only guys that uses the amp's onboard gain/overdrive channels. The person I was talking to has both an overdrive and a distortion pedal - a concept he always viewed as the norm.

Some great musicians are using only a little clean amp with a few overdrive/ distortion pedals, some other (even greater big_smile) musicians, like Joe, are using mostly the overdrive sounds of their amps, only with some additional overdrive/ boost pedals to fire their amps.


NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

I've always carried a value that an amp you buy should have a killer clean tone and one of these two: awesome overdrive or awesome distortion (heavy). Inevitably, that amp and its latter quality would be accompanied by the opposite (distortion or overdrive) in the form of a pedal.

If you have (too) much money, you can buy an amp for clean sounds, one for overdriven sounds, and one for distortion sound (hey, Joe!).
If you don't have that much money, you will have to look for one amp with a great sound, and maybe pedals.



As for myself I think, if you have the money and you have big rooms / clubs / gigs where you can play your overdriven amps, then you should do it. This is the greatest sound you can get!

To be more flexible, you can use a smaller clean amp together with some pedals, but I think, this will not sound as great as really overdriven power amplifier.

OK, I hope I told at least some true things, corrections are welcomed - especially for the technical parts big_smile

Here are my tabbed songs by "Smokin' Joe": http://www.jbonamassa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7236
I LIKE MUSIC! big_smile big_smile big_smile
  • eva
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Interesting thread! Thanks for asking these questions ...

One more question:

What is the difference between overdrive and disortion?

I´m sorry for asking stupid questions, laugh at me if you like wink

Eva

  • Registered: 2008-08-29
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Great thread,

Overdrive is placing a signal in front of the amp that allows the amp to break up using its own tubes.

Distortion is a box that creates the breakup within the effect and is only amplified but not created within the tubes.

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Knotins wrote:

Great thread,

Overdrive is placing a signal in front of the amp that allows the amp to break up using its own tubes.

Distortion is a box that creates the breakup within the effect and is only amplified but not created within the tubes.

??!?
This can't be completely true, overdrive can also be produced without tubes, and with only using within it!

Maybe you meant Boost instead of Overdrive? A Boost is changing the signal into a "louder" signal, and this will allow the amp to "crunch".

Overdrive is a harmonical sound, while Distortion has a more snappy, edged sound.

Using tubes to get the overdrive will lead to a smoother sound (and a very harmonic feedback).

Hope this is right?!

Here are my tabbed songs by "Smokin' Joe": http://www.jbonamassa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7236
I LIKE MUSIC! big_smile big_smile big_smile

7 Reply by ken (edited by ken 2009-01-22 10:33:41)

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

eva wrote:

What is the difference between overdrive and disortion?

I´m sorry for asking stupid questions, laugh at me if you like wink

Eva

Not a stupid question, because 5 experienced guitar players may describe the difference 5 different ways...

I think of overdrive is more of a mild break up ( trying to emulate a clean tube amp on 10 or power tubes being driven hard). Think Eric Clapton...

Distortion is a more heavy version of overdrive. Think Metallica...

Either can be accomplished with or without pedals depending on your amp.

  • ken
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

SO HERE's my question.

1.What is the difference between the gain channel on a tube amp, and an overdrive or distortion pedal?

2. I always assumed the gain channel in the amp had more to do with the preamp tubes (I have 5 12Ax7A's in my Rivera) and a pedal is a solid state distortion (unless it has a preamp tube in the pedal) going through a clean amp. Am I correct on this concept or just completely off my rocker?

3. Are onboard gain channels waning in popularity because of pedals?


crazythingimnotabigfanofdisortionpedalswhenyoucangetthatinagoodamp

1. The gain channel on a tube amp like your Rivera uses a combination of preamp and power tubes to get it's sound (no diodes). The lower you play, the more preamp tube distortion, the louder you get, the power tubes kick in more. Some amps (Silver Jub) also use diodes in combination with the tubes.
Most pedals use diodes and not tubes...(but some use both)

2. Yes, you're correct...but you may be off your rocker also wink

3. I don't think so, most amps nowadays have at least 2 channels (some have 4 or more).
Some people like the simplicity of plugging directly in to the amp and getting sounds by switching channels. More pure signal without tone being sucked out by going through all the pedals.

It's all just a matter of taste and what you think sounds better. I have a 2 channel amp, but usually just use the gain channel and roll the volume back for cleans.

Some amps sound better clean with pedals, because they don't have a very good gain channel, or by design they are clean amps meant to be used with pedals (twin).

  • From: Detroit
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

ken wrote:

1. The gain channel on a tube amp like your Rivera uses a combination of preamp and power tubes to get it's sound (no diodes). The lower you play, the more preamp tube distortion, the louder you get, the power tubes kick in more. Some amps (Silver Jub) also use diodes in combination with the tubes.
Most pedals use diodes and not tubes...(but some use both)

Some amps sound better clean with pedals, because they don't have a very good gain channel, or by design they are clean amps meant to be used with pedals (twin).

SO diodes is the guts in what I was calling solid state vs. just tubes.

F-twinReverbs weren't meant to be used with pedals? why not?

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool
  • Benc
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Intresting thread.. I agree the Amps own gain is prob going to be the best,

11 Reply by eva

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

ken wrote:

I think of overdrive is more of a mild break up ( trying to emulate a clean tube amp on 10 or power tubes being driven hard). Think Eric Clapton...

Distortion is a more heavy version of overdrive. Think Metallica...

Thanks a lot, that explains it for me ... smile

Eva

12 Reply by ken

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

SO diodes is the guts in what I was calling solid state vs. just tubes.

I think a diode is kind of like a solid state version of a vacuum tube, some of the pedal and/or amp guys here may have a better or more correct explanation.

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

F-twinReverbs weren't meant to be used with pedals? why not?

A twin would be an example of a clean amp, that would be used with pedals to get different levels of distortion or overdrive.

  • mitch
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Threre's lots of ways to get all different and subtle shades of distortion/overdrive out of your amp- I used to be in the clean amp then use pedals to get  a lead tone- these days I use an amp that distorts quite a lot (a Trainwreck clone) - then just roll back the volume on the guitar to get (cleanish) tones when needed, sometimes using a transistor based Fuzzface or diode based overdrive like a tubescreamer to go 'over the top' (Like Joe) when needed- usually when the band I'm in does it's ZZ Top medley or our mutant Hendrix workout ;-)

essentially try lots of permutations- they're infinite combinations to try- you just need to work out what's best for your style... but after all the years I've been playing- having a great valve amp with great tone is the most essential thing imho.

This don't look like no express way to me...

14 Reply by Knotins (edited by Knotins 2009-01-23 00:59:47)

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

JBJHJM wrote:
Knotins wrote:

Great thread,

Overdrive is placing a signal in front of the amp that allows the amp to break up using its own tubes.

Distortion is a box that creates the breakup within the effect and is only amplified but not created within the tubes.

??!?
This can't be completely true, overdrive can also be produced without tubes, and with only using within it!

Maybe you meant Boost instead of Overdrive? A Boost is changing the signal into a "louder" signal, and this will allow the amp to "crunch".

Overdrive is a harmonical sound, while Distortion has a more snappy, edged sound.

Using tubes to get the overdrive will lead to a smoother sound (and a very harmonic feedback).

Hope this is right?!

Are we talking pedals or are we talking organic amp distortion and overdrive?

Let me jump back in on this topic. Overdrive is pushing a hot signal to your tubes allowing them to break up, turn up the volume and it will drive the tubes harder and when the signal breaks up you are in overdrive.

Distortion is the resulting break up of the signal for any reason including the overdriven signal to your amp and is more of a generic term, you can distort a speakers tone by playing loudly, a signal can be distorted through a poor connection or an electronic device purposely creating distortion.  True, pedals achieve distortion or overdriven tones within there own components and for all intensive purposes effectively there is no difference in their relationship with the actual amplifier.

A prime example of what is the difference between a distortion pedal and an overdrive pedal is to compare the Ratt Distortion to the Tube Screamer. The general components of the two were very alike and the many of these models share the same LM308 IC chip.  It is all in the name and again is generic relating to pedals. Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face, Tube Screamer, Ratt, all distortion pedals by different names !

But all in all the tone were generaly seeking is that beautiful natural  breakup of a tube amp when it is pushed to the point that those tubes are overdriven.

Thats my story and im sticking to it ! Sorry for ranting and raving.

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Knotins wrote:

Are we talking pedals or are we talking organic amp distortion and overdrive?

Let me jump back in on this topic. Overdrive is pushing a hot signal to your tubes allowing them to break up, turn up the volume and it will drive the tubes harder and when the signal breaks up you are in overdrive.

Distortion is the resulting break up of the signal for any reason including the overdriven signal to your amp and is more of a generic term, you can distort a speakers tone by playing loudly, a signal can be distorted through a poor connection or an electronic device purposely creating distortion.  True, pedals achieve distortion or overdriven tones within there own components and for all intensive purposes effectively there is no difference in their relationship with the actual amplifier.

A prime example of what is the difference between a distortion pedal and an overdrive pedal is to compare the Ratt Distortion to the Tube Screamer. The general components of the two were very alike and the many of these models share the same LM308 IC chip.  It is all in the name and again is generic relating to pedals. Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face, Tube Screamer, Ratt, all distortion pedals by different names !

But all in all the tone were generaly seeking is that beautiful natural  breakup of a tube amp when it is pushed to the point that those tubes are overdriven.

Thats my story and im sticking to it ! Sorry for ranting and raving.

I think, now you're right!!

Here are my tabbed songs by "Smokin' Joe": http://www.jbonamassa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7236
I LIKE MUSIC! big_smile big_smile big_smile

16 Reply by NPB_EST.1979 (edited by NPB_EST.1979 2009-01-23 09:07:32)

  • From: Detroit
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

Knotins wrote:

Are we talking pedals or are we talking organic amp distortion and overdrive?

Gotcha.

Lets say I have my tube amp's Master on "2," and I hit the "gain" channel on the amp to get a good heavy rock sound. The breakup is not natural, so I was wondering if the gain channel in a tube amp is the same as a distortion pedal, only it just lives in the amp.

What is the difference between the built-in gain channel on a tube amp and using a distortion pedal?

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool
  • Registered: 2007-11-04
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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

I'd just add that for those of you who say amp overdrive is better than pedals...

I have a 90's evil twin which is a three channel 100 watt amp. The clean is fantastic. I have always loved the clean channel.  The gain channels have always left much to be desired.

I placed some good overdrive pedals in front of it and suddenly it sounds great.  So to all those who have this theory that amp overdrive is better???

It depends on the amp and it depends on the pedal.  Clearly if pedals were worse no one would buy them.

Also I seem to remember a few guys who are known for tone who all used pedals...
Page, hendrix, Kossoff, bonamassa, shephard, mayer, clapton...

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Re: Amp experts:amp's built in gain vs. pedal?

jgalvan8804 wrote:

I'd just add that for those of you who say amp overdrive is better than pedals...

I have a 90's evil twin which is a three channel 100 watt amp. The clean is fantastic. I have always loved the clean channel.  The gain channels have always left much to be desired.

I placed some good overdrive pedals in front of it and suddenly it sounds great.  So to all those who have this theory that amp overdrive is better???

It depends on the amp and it depends on the pedal.  Clearly if pedals were worse no one would buy them.

Also I seem to remember a few guys who are known for tone who all used pedals...
Page, hendrix, Kossoff, bonamassa, shephard, mayer, clapton...

That's right, but a great amp overdrive sounds better than a great pedal overdrive! big_smile

Here are my tabbed songs by "Smokin' Joe": http://www.jbonamassa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7236
I LIKE MUSIC! big_smile big_smile big_smile