Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

ReverendPaul wrote:
Deezer wrote:

It was kinda directed at everybody. We went from discussing whether the drinking age should be lowered to what alcoholism is. Those two are independent discussions in my mind.

Yes that was pointed out on post #47...20 some posts ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did not realize until this post that each post is numbered. Go figure.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

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Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Deezer wrote:

Clearly you've never met my dad. He can go without them and not get the shakes, and not go, "Oh my gosh I gotta have a beer!" This is the same man who stopped cigarette smoking one day because he didn't want to do it anymore. No patches, no shakes, no nothing. Just stopped. Who just stopped chewing one day because he was tired of it, didn't want to do it anymore. Who will oftentimes go a few weeks without drinking anything just because it gets old to him.

Like I said, you don't know my dad. And I feel bad for you for not. I'm not making him out to be Superman, but one thing he has taught me is how powerful a tool the mind can be.

Oh, and he doesn't get behind the wheel when he drinks.

That's good, he's a wise man, unfortunately the statistics are astounding as to how many do with disastrous results. Smoking has it's own circumstances, most unfortunately second hand smoke. When your dad quit he was doing everyone around him a favor too. The first thing my doctor asked me when he diagnosed my cancer last summer was, how long have you smoked? When I said I didn't, he really began scratching his head and I did admit to him I rarely imbibed in the herb, not to leave anything out. They thought it was a classic case of throat cancer due to tabacco, but then all the tissue samples from within my throat were negative too. So its anyones guess, but they took care of it.

                                                                                                      J Dawg

What is success? Is it do yo' own thang, or is it to join the rest?   -Allen Toussaint

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

ohiodawg13 wrote:
Deezer wrote:

Clearly you've never met my dad. He can go without them and not get the shakes, and not go, "Oh my gosh I gotta have a beer!" This is the same man who stopped cigarette smoking one day because he didn't want to do it anymore. No patches, no shakes, no nothing. Just stopped. Who just stopped chewing one day because he was tired of it, didn't want to do it anymore. Who will oftentimes go a few weeks without drinking anything just because it gets old to him.

Like I said, you don't know my dad. And I feel bad for you for not. I'm not making him out to be Superman, but one thing he has taught me is how powerful a tool the mind can be.

Oh, and he doesn't get behind the wheel when he drinks.

That's good, he's a wise man, unfortunately the statistics are astounding as to how many do with disastrous results. Smoking has it's own circumstances, most unfortunately second hand smoke. When your dad quit he was doing everyone around him a favor too. The first thing my doctor asked me when he diagnosed my cancer last summer was, how long have you smoked? When I said I didn't, he really began scratching his head and I did admit to him I rarely imbibed in the herb, not to leave anything out. They thought it was a classic case of throat cancer due to tabacco, but then all the tissue samples from within my throat were negative too. So its anyones guess, but they took care of it.

                                                                                                      J Dawg

My parents were always really cool about once I was born, they started smoking outside (my mom still smokes). No matter where we're at, whether it's smoking or non-smoking, mom always goes outside and smokes. Never grew up with that smell in the house. Now, at the country club I worked at in high school, completely different story. lol

We're on her hard to quit, maybe one day we'll get to her before it's too late. She's awful stubborn though. Wonder where I got it from?

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

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Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

ReverendPaul wrote:

My brain still hurts.

Advil.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

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Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Brief history of the minimum legal drinking age

After Prohibition, nearly all states restricting youth access to alcohol designated 21 as the minimum legal drinking age (MLDA). Between 1970 and 1975, however, 29 states lowered the MLDA to 18, 19, or 20. These changes occurred when the minimum age for other activities, such as voting, also were being lowered (Wechsler & Sands, 1980). Scientists began studying the effects of the lowered MLDA, focusing particularly on the incidence of motor vehicle crashes, the leading cause of death among teenagers. Several studies in the 1970s found that motor vehicle crashes increased significantly among teens when the MLDA was lowered (Cucchiaro et al, 1974; Douglas et al, 1974; Wagenaar, 1983, 1993; Whitehead, 1977; Whitehead et al, 1975; Williams et al, 1974).

With evidence that a lower drinking age resulted in more traffic injuries and fatalities among youth, citizen advocacy groups pressured states to restore the MLDA to 21. Because of such advocacy campaigns, 16 states increased their MLDAs between September 1976 and January 1983. Resistance from other states, and concern that minors would travel across state lines to purchase and consume alcohol, prompted the federal government in 1984 to enact the Uniform Drinking Age Act, which mandated reduced federal transportation funds to those states that did not raise the MLDA to 21. Among alcohol control policies, the MLDA has been the most studied: since the 1970s, at least 70 studies have examined the effects of either increasing or decreasing the MLDA.

Research findings

    * A higher minimum legal drinking age is effective in preventing alcohol-related deaths and injuries among youth. When the MLDA has been lowered, injury and death rates increase, and when the MLDA is increased, death and injury rates decline (Wagenaar, 1993).
    * A higher MLDA results in fewer alcohol-related problems among youth, and the 21-year-old MLDA saves the lives of well over 1,000 youth each year (Jones et al, 1992; NHTSA, 1989). Conversely, when the MLDA is lowered, motor vehicle crashes and deaths among youth increase. At least 50 studies have evaluated this correlation (Wagenaar, 1993).
    * A common argument among opponents of a higher MLDA is that because many minors still drink and purchase alcohol, the policy doesn't work. The evidence shows, however, that although many youth still consume alcohol, they drink less and experience fewer alcohol-related injuries and deaths (Wagenaar, 1993).
    * Research shows that when the MLDA is 21, people under age 21 drink less overall and continue to do so through their early twenties (O'Malley & Wagenaar, 1991).
    * The effect of the higher MLDA occurs with little or no enforcement. Historically, enforcement has focused primarily on penalizing underage drinkers for illegal alcohol possession and/or consumption. For every 1,000 minors arrested for alcohol possession, only 130 merchants have actions taken against them, and only 88 adults who supply alcohol to minors face criminal penalties (Wagenaar & Wolfson, 1995).
    * Researchers conducted an in-depth review of enforcement actions in 295 counties in Kentucky, Michigan, Montana, and Oregon. The review showed that in a three-year period, 27 percent of the counties took no action against licensed establishments that sold alcohol to minors, and 41 percent of those counties made no arrests of adults who supplied alcohol to minors. Although the majority of the counties took at least one action against alcohol establishments and/or adults who provided alcohol to minors, many did not take such actions frequently (Wagenaar & Wolfson, 1995).
    * Regarding Europeans and alcohol use among youth, research confirms that Europeans have rates of alcohol-related diseases (such as cirrhosis of the liver) similar to or higher than those in the U.S. population (Single, 1984). However, drinking and driving among youth may not be as great a problem in Europe as in the U.S. Compared to their American counterparts, European youth must be older to obtain their drivers' licenses, are less likely to have a car, and are more inclined to use public transportation (Wagenaar, 1993).

Peace
Bluezman

I got blisters on my bloody fingers (JL)

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Bluezman wrote:

Brief history of the minimum legal drinking age

After Prohibition, nearly all states restricting youth access to alcohol designated 21 as the minimum legal drinking age (MLDA). Between 1970 and 1975, however, 29 states lowered the MLDA to 18, 19, or 20. These changes occurred when the minimum age for other activities, such as voting, also were being lowered (Wechsler & Sands, 1980). Scientists began studying the effects of the lowered MLDA, focusing particularly on the incidence of motor vehicle crashes, the leading cause of death among teenagers. Several studies in the 1970s found that motor vehicle crashes increased significantly among teens when the MLDA was lowered (Cucchiaro et al, 1974; Douglas et al, 1974; Wagenaar, 1983, 1993; Whitehead, 1977; Whitehead et al, 1975; Williams et al, 1974).

With evidence that a lower drinking age resulted in more traffic injuries and fatalities among youth, citizen advocacy groups pressured states to restore the MLDA to 21. Because of such advocacy campaigns, 16 states increased their MLDAs between September 1976 and January 1983. Resistance from other states, and concern that minors would travel across state lines to purchase and consume alcohol, prompted the federal government in 1984 to enact the Uniform Drinking Age Act, which mandated reduced federal transportation funds to those states that did not raise the MLDA to 21. Among alcohol control policies, the MLDA has been the most studied: since the 1970s, at least 70 studies have examined the effects of either increasing or decreasing the MLDA.

Research findings

    * A higher minimum legal drinking age is effective in preventing alcohol-related deaths and injuries among youth. When the MLDA has been lowered, injury and death rates increase, and when the MLDA is increased, death and injury rates decline (Wagenaar, 1993).
    * A higher MLDA results in fewer alcohol-related problems among youth, and the 21-year-old MLDA saves the lives of well over 1,000 youth each year (Jones et al, 1992; NHTSA, 1989). Conversely, when the MLDA is lowered, motor vehicle crashes and deaths among youth increase. At least 50 studies have evaluated this correlation (Wagenaar, 1993).
    * A common argument among opponents of a higher MLDA is that because many minors still drink and purchase alcohol, the policy doesn't work. The evidence shows, however, that although many youth still consume alcohol, they drink less and experience fewer alcohol-related injuries and deaths (Wagenaar, 1993).
    * Research shows that when the MLDA is 21, people under age 21 drink less overall and continue to do so through their early twenties (O'Malley & Wagenaar, 1991).
    * The effect of the higher MLDA occurs with little or no enforcement. Historically, enforcement has focused primarily on penalizing underage drinkers for illegal alcohol possession and/or consumption. For every 1,000 minors arrested for alcohol possession, only 130 merchants have actions taken against them, and only 88 adults who supply alcohol to minors face criminal penalties (Wagenaar & Wolfson, 1995).
    * Researchers conducted an in-depth review of enforcement actions in 295 counties in Kentucky, Michigan, Montana, and Oregon. The review showed that in a three-year period, 27 percent of the counties took no action against licensed establishments that sold alcohol to minors, and 41 percent of those counties made no arrests of adults who supplied alcohol to minors. Although the majority of the counties took at least one action against alcohol establishments and/or adults who provided alcohol to minors, many did not take such actions frequently (Wagenaar & Wolfson, 1995).
    * Regarding Europeans and alcohol use among youth, research confirms that Europeans have rates of alcohol-related diseases (such as cirrhosis of the liver) similar to or higher than those in the U.S. population (Single, 1984). However, drinking and driving among youth may not be as great a problem in Europe as in the U.S. Compared to their American counterparts, European youth must be older to obtain their drivers' licenses, are less likely to have a car, and are more inclined to use public transportation (Wagenaar, 1993).

Peace
Bluezman

That's why kids need to be educated. It's the same thing with pregnancy, it's all about the education and getting it to stick. You show me someone educated on the subject, and I'll show you someone who's way less likely to screw up.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

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Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

I know the feeling Deezer, My Uncle was a highly respected surgeon in Cleveland, but couldn't kick the habit and it eventually got him. Just doesn't make sense.

                                                                                            Think Smokeless,

                                                                                            J Dawg

What is success? Is it do yo' own thang, or is it to join the rest?   -Allen Toussaint

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Well, we've gotten her where she's trying to quit, whereas a few years ago that wasn't even a question. I think we'll get there.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

My ReverbNation page for Dees & Friends - check us out!
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Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

BluesMan wrote:

You know, I could go for a Bloody Mary right now.......

Roy

I'll drink to that

I got blisters on my bloody fingers (JL)

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

I wanna thank the mods for not closing this thread. I think we have shown that we can have a (mostly) civilized discussion on a topic that is controversial.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

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Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

He looked of age.  Maybe he should've had a drink.  BWAAAAAA

That was really gross.  I've never seen that before.

let'shaveameeting
itwouldhavetobeoffsite
uhnonevermind

tongue lol cool

Rock On & Keep the FAITH
             It is
Blues From the Bottoms

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Deezer wrote:

I wanna thank the mods for not closing this thread. I think we have shown that we can have a (mostly) civilized discussion on a topic that is controversial.

Good point.  Thanks from me as well.

I'm done.
Jeff

Rock On & Keep the FAITH
             It is
Blues From the Bottoms

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Shredit wrote:
ReverendPaul wrote:

Big mistake. If anything raise it to 25.
As far as the other things they can do at 18. Maybe someone should look at how well they are doing those at 18 before giving out more privilages.

Ditto!!....this is coming from a recovering alky!.....started when I was 10, went fulltime at 16....screwed up all my dreams of being a professional baseball player...if alcoholism runs in your family , you are already facing an up hill battle....hey maybe I'm just a loser, whatever

Dave

Same here, Dave.  Amazing I'm still here to type this. And you're not a loser, lol!

18 is a bad idea...as someone mentioned earlier, 18 year olds share their booze with their younger friends.  That's how I started my drinking career.

Keep it where it is, or raise it. That's just my humble opinion.  wink

If heartaches were nickels
I'd be the richest fool alive

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

ReverendPaul wrote:
bigjeffjones wrote:
ReverendPaul wrote:

http://tangledupinblues.com/SRV-AA.html

The sight above is a transcript of Stevie's AA talk for anyone interested.

Big Jeff Jones - Right on brother.


Peace out

Thanks 11/7/83

You da man oldtimer
5/14/95

9/17/91  wink

Thanks for the link Rev Paul, I need to check that out.

If heartaches were nickels
I'd be the richest fool alive

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Beerdog80 wrote:
Bill S wrote:

I don't think it has much to do with age. I know some 45 year olds that would make you want to raise the drinking age to 50!
Seriously, I know some 18 year olds that are quite reasonable and could handle it, others that aren't ready.

actually age has a huge impact on this issue...and THAT is where the problem lies.  A PERSON is a smart, reasonable being.  PEOPLE are dumb, stupid cattle.

   I would say from a law enforcement (what I do) standpoint...18 is a very bad idea.  Reason  is 18 year olds generally hang out with others within their peer group...meaning high schoolers.  Once a person gets older and begins to hang around newer (usually other, older people) the chances for things going bad in any context are reduced since they generally have more life experience and have learned the consequences of bad decisions (speaking in broad terms here). 
  Plus, the LITERAL development of the brain itself is a major sticking point.  A younger persons cognitive process (the decision making part of the brain) is not as developed as a person who is older.  Why is that important?  Because a person who is lacking in that part of the brain (younger people) will only see the 'fun' or 'most enjoyable' in relation to a given situation.  Not the possible repercussion's that accompany all decisions.

   ***off the soap box***

My point was not to say make the drinking age 18...but that there are some people that will abuse alcohol no matter what age they are.
Maybe we should require a "drinking" license, just like you need a drivers license. Classes, tests, etc. so people understand the effects of alcohol.
Except the liquor lobbyists would never allow that.

"Rock ON & Keep the Faith"

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Mindy wrote:
ReverendPaul wrote:
bigjeffjones wrote:

Thanks 11/7/83

You da man oldtimer
5/14/95

9/17/91  wink

Thanks for the link Rev Paul, I need to check that out.

One day at a time...experience, strength & hope.  It can be summed up in two 6 word prayers:

Thy will, not mine, be done.
Trust God, Clean house, Help others.

I said I was done.  oops!  big_smile

Rock On & Keep the FAITH
             It is
Blues From the Bottoms

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Words to live by, absolutely.  wink

If heartaches were nickels
I'd be the richest fool alive

Re: Lower Drinking Age to 18?

Bill S wrote:
Beerdog80 wrote:
Bill S wrote:

I don't think it has much to do with age. I know some 45 year olds that would make you want to raise the drinking age to 50!
Seriously, I know some 18 year olds that are quite reasonable and could handle it, others that aren't ready.

actually age has a huge impact on this issue...and THAT is where the problem lies.  A PERSON is a smart, reasonable being.  PEOPLE are dumb, stupid cattle.

   I would say from a law enforcement (what I do) standpoint...18 is a very bad idea.  Reason  is 18 year olds generally hang out with others within their peer group...meaning high schoolers.  Once a person gets older and begins to hang around newer (usually other, older people) the chances for things going bad in any context are reduced since they generally have more life experience and have learned the consequences of bad decisions (speaking in broad terms here). 
  Plus, the LITERAL development of the brain itself is a major sticking point.  A younger persons cognitive process (the decision making part of the brain) is not as developed as a person who is older.  Why is that important?  Because a person who is lacking in that part of the brain (younger people) will only see the 'fun' or 'most enjoyable' in relation to a given situation.  Not the possible repercussion's that accompany all decisions.

   ***off the soap box***

My point was not to say make the drinking age 18...but that there are some people that will abuse alcohol no matter what age they are.
Maybe we should require a "drinking" license, just like you need a drivers license. Classes, tests, etc. so people understand the effects of alcohol.
Except the liquor lobbyists would never allow that.

Quite true.  A drinking license is a good idea but who would fund that sort of thing?  If we did that, then there would be a tobacco license as well.  But BOTH are good ideas.  IF that were done, they should just fine the folks caught in violation rather than jailing them.  Make them do community service as well...

I need to lay off the soap box! smile

Don't play leapfrog with a unicorn