Topic: Are Tubes Overrated?

Consider this. BB King played through a Lab Series. Saw him live and his tone was superb.

For years I played bass through an Ampeg V4B and it sounded good but I also liked the tone I could get from GKs.

I record demos onto a DAW called Mixcraft and I use the amp models that come with the program. I have been asked what the guitar was on some of the songs and what amp and guitar I used because people liked the tone.

Nearly every guitar player I played with played either a Fender, Marshall or Mesa. Liked Mesa the best overall but the others were a close second especially the Fender Deluxe.  I have heard other bands where the guitar was going through Lab Series and loved the tone when mixed with the rest of the band.

Has anyone done a "blind taste test" of solid state vs tube?

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

Tubes do sound better...especially warmed up....that's why they are still around....only they are expensive to replace.
-Vinyl records are making a slight comeback as well.....who would have thought that would ever happen..
Each of us has different musical tastes & different hearing ....some can hear the difference and others can't...to some loud is loud and that's all that matters etc.

And so castles made of sand melts into the sea, eventually.........

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

I've used direct in on recordings before and gotten great results - it used to be very popular to record direct in to old analog boards which is responsible for many classic tones on notable songs. But I think it depends on what you're going for - better or worse can be somewhat subjective. Overall, you'll probably find more high quality amplifiers that are tube driven as thats what more pros tend to demand, whereas solid state are mostly marketed to beginner/intermediate level.

In my experience you can get a great clean tone with solid state/modelers/etc. - but anything overdrive + I wouldn't go with anything but tube. Tubes sound much richer when you want to get that type of sound.

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

One man's opinion...

I'll start by saying that I own an Axe Fx and Line 6 gear, as well as a variety of modeling software. I have a number of good cabinet IR's. I am also very adept at programming these and have tweaked them to the nth degree to get the best out of them for myself and some other artists. This has often included many iterations of A/Bing between my real world amps and the emulations that I was programming.  I fully understand the "in the room" issue that many discussions of modelers versus tube amps include.

In my experience, the results with digital can vary, depending upon application and on the particular modeler. At its best, I've gotten very good, even great recorded tones. However, even at its best, it does not (to these ears and hands) feel the same nor sound the same as a great tube amp. I still greatly prefer playing my tube amps, both live where I can turn them up and at home where I'm much more limited. The feel is much more enjoyable to me and the sound is much more inspiring. To the average listener? Meh... The average listener streams Beiber on Spotify through cheap, consumer level DAC into Bose speakers, so they get no say! Ha! ;-)

I have the modeling tools for when the desire for convenience outweighs preference. Although I find myself moving away from modeling, in general, and in the directions of direct recording utilizing my tube amps with active load boxes and cabinet IR's.

In my mind, a tube amp isn't a guarantee for better tone over a modeler... Tone comes from the player as well as the equipment, and relies upon other elements and skill for proper live sound reproduction and/or recording. Also, there certainly are a lot of mediocre (or worse) tube amps, a lot of poor recordings of tube amps, and a lot of players who's playing doesn't exactly flatter the amp designer's work.

But, I think if we are comparing each option at its best, with good playing skills in tow, then (for me, at least), tubes continue to rule by a large margin for both tone and feel.

I know that there are those who feel that certain high end modelers emulate tubes to such a degree that they find the differences imperceptible. I believe that these people are telling the truth, but with the caveat that their sensitivity to the differences are not as heightened as some others and/or they are not as nuanced in their playing, so as to better reveal these differences. That's not a slag against anyone, it just reinforces that there is not one ideal solution for everyone, as we all have different perceptions, preferences, playing styles, and levels of mastery of our instruments. We all need to find what works for each of us.

I think also that the differences are accentuated with certain tones and styles of playing. For instance, mid gain and verge of breakup sounds and intricate playing will spotlight the differences more so than, say, high gain or hyper clean tones and simpler rhythm playing.

What digital has in its favor is versatility with regards to base tones, fx, etc, ability for storing large amounts or presets to be recalled instantly, great depths of tweakability, and often portability (although sometimes after a FFFR amplification solution is considered, portability may not be better). Also, for many it is easier to get a good recorded tone with something like an Axe Fx than a tube amp in a room with mics, so that should be considered if it applies.

Tube amps sometimes offer easier repairability (certainly, older classic PTP circuits are).

With the addition of devices such as the Bad Cat Unleash and better implementations of PPIMV's, big tube amps are more usable than ever, and even for low volume applications, big (even classic NMV circuit) amps are an option for home or live use. It's no longer a matter of choosing between a digital solution or a small tube amp (which, for better or worse, do not sound like there big brothers). With the addition of devices such as the Two Notes Torpedo offerings and Suhr's Reactive Load, silent/direct recording is also an option, even with big tube amps. So, the convenience gap of digital versus tubes has narrowed significantly.

The biggest challenge, IMHO, with tube amps is with the availability of tubes themselves. Tubes are a niche commodity and only manufactured in a handful of places in the world. The tools are aging and the knowledge is dying out as this is not something included in modern engineering and manufacturing education programs. NOS tubes are being bought up and used up. Perhaps we may one day see digital emulations of actual tubes that plug and play into tube amps that model the physical characteristic of these lovable glass bottles (however the market for this is so slight, I would be a bit surprised).

So, the answer is now as it always was, I think... It's really whatever you personally like best. =-)

Cheers,

5 (edited by bluesky636 2015-08-05 19:22:20)

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

CGB wrote:

Consider this. BB King played through a Lab Series. Saw him live and his tone was superb.

Before he used the Lab, he played through a 1958 High Power Tweed Twin. He also used other amps before and after that.

http://www.standingatthecrossroads.nl/w … llo_22.jpg

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Bill

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

I kinda see it like this.

Expense and availability are issues and then you have the hard vs soft preamp tubes and then the "matched" power tubes.

When I had to re-tube my Ampeg it had originally come with 7027A power tubes. When I went to re-tube it they were unavailable. Luckily there was a good tech in Utica NY a guy named Eugene and he advised me to used 6550's They were a decent tube  but when they needed replacement I had read that 6L6's would work. They didn't. I was then able to get 7027A and they were expensive.

Another drawback with tubes is available power at the gig. Tube amps are effected by voltage. Low voltage is a problem for all amps especially tube amps. I don't know if they are still making hybrid amps i.e. tube pre amp and solid state power amp. When you mic up your cabinet the sound then goes through a solid state board and solid state amps and when you listen to music the gear is solid state. It's like the tubes that really do the tonal work are the pre amp tubes.

It was explained to me that the appeal of tubes to the ear is that they produce even order harmonics when they distort and humans like that type of sound. I think this is what Eddie Van Halen called the brown sound. It would seem to be that the technology is there to emulate tubes. The reviews I read about the Peavey TransTube amp are quite positive.

I gotta say that Joe's tone is among the best.  Some players can make a lot of amps sound good. Joe's tone from what I have heard is always great even when he's playing a Les Paul. I'm partial to Tele's, Strat's and 335 style guitars.

IMO one can never go wrong with a Fender, Marshall or Boogie and for good measure a Rat on the pedal board. Those were the tones I'm used to hearing. I'm partial to Tele's. 

I suppose tubes will always have their place but I personally can live without power tubes. I'm sure others could not.

7 (edited by DougH 2015-08-06 08:36:10)

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

let me just add.. (I'm not in the same category of players on this forum) but when I got my first tube amp..
my ears went wow, I've been missing a lot.
then I started replacing the cap's and tubes and transformers in the tube amp and I started to hear the difference between each one
(that being the difference a capacitor or resistor or transformer made, I almost started my own amp company)
now after a few years of not modd'ing amp's.. I'd have a hard time telling a Zoso from a Sprague cap.

back to you comment about mic'ing an amp and putting it through the board.

the board (ie PA) is just that, PA'ing the already amp sound,, it's supposed to reproduce the sound linear and not add compression or distortion.
the compression and distortion is coming from the amp's, the mic's just pickup and retransmit the sound they hear.
if a PA system is compressing and distorting.. that's a major mistake on the sound tech.

just like Joe used in his 'big rig's' high powered EV speakers, it wasn't just to keep the speakers from blowing but they didn't add much colour to the sound, they just reproduced what he/guitar/pedals/amp's were already doing.

Solid State amp's are darn light to carry over tube amp's, I'm reminded of that every time I decide to move my gear around.

as for the average listener in a crowded bar/theatre/stadium.. bet 99% couldn't tell you if the player was playing straight into a board or through amp's

it was one of Joe's Pickup Radio spots he talked about touring with a band that had rows and rows of stacks in the back line and they played through 1 amp and relied on the PA for the rest.

sound is in the ears of this listener.
Enjoy

---------------

(If only I had 1% of Joe's guitar talent)

8 (edited by Rocket 2015-08-06 16:09:41)

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

In the sense that The Emperor's nude clothes were not overrated (by one reviewer), no they are not.  In the same thematic sense, concerning a tube's character, grasping and gasping at power can corrupt objectivity inasmuch as subjectivity, likened to subjects, can go far past believability with accolades.

They simply don't make your playing sound better than you are.  The same as any other aspect of guitars, gear, and amps...


Rock ON & Keep The Faith,
Rocket

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
"Everybody wants ta get inta the act!"
“Now, this isn’t your ordinary party crowd, here.  I mean, there are professionals in here.”

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

grumble.. grumble..
sounds like Rocket is trying to tell me that I will always sound like me no matter what guitar, pedal or amp I use..  wink

I was looking that the red pill and the blue one.. hmmm

---------------

(If only I had 1% of Joe's guitar talent)

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

DougH wrote:

grumble.. grumble..
sounds like Rocket is trying to tell me that I will always sound like me no matter what guitar, pedal or amp I use..  wink

I was looking that the red pill and the blue one.. hmmm

I remember as a child using our family's World Book encyclopedia to find information of this thing "marijuana" I was hearing about from various angles (not my parents, good or bad, to their credit).  It was an extremely short and uniformative entry.  A truncated product of the publishing times.  No history, no controversy, not even a remote shred of vilification.  What I do still recall is the mention of its usage by musicians, and how it could make them think they performed better, and the claim being unsubstantiated.  Tube amps (and the rest of the stuff) makes one think they perform (sound) better.  That's what is thought, therefore it can only be true!  True to oneself is still true. But beyond yourself, it is a fallacy.  You just sound like you want to!  Personal comfort is never overrated, however... big_smile


Rock ON with the Totally Tubular Truths & Keep The Faith,
Rocket

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
"Everybody wants ta get inta the act!"
“Now, this isn’t your ordinary party crowd, here.  I mean, there are professionals in here.”

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

Overrated?  Maybe a little bit, but it's still my preference.  Pretty much every one of my top 100 albums of all time is loaded with tube amp tones - the recorded history speaks for itself, and I trust my ears.  They're all I've got!  I can't make a record thinking "well, I don't like the way it sounds, but there's some study out there that says this other thing is better so I better go with that."

Of course you can get great tone without tubes, and as has been mentioned, there are advantages.  Truth be told, 90% of my playing nowadays is via an 11 Rack or S-Gear software plugin.

Good tone doesn't come from gear, it comes from knowing how to use gear.  But for now, anyways, I still prefer the sound of a good tube amp.

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

No more than a Les Paul/Strat/etc............is overated. If the device does EXACTLY what you want, it's the greatest invention on earth.

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

"feel" is better on tubes. Solid state cannot knock you over like a tube amp can. 100 watts of tube sounds "bigger" than 100 watts of solid state. A solid state amplifier of much greater power would remain undistorted at higher levels, but the tube amp would sound comparably loud to the larger solid state amp.

Underneath this conversation, brands of tubes themselves I believe are somewhat overrated... which is what I was expecting to read opening this topic!

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

14

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

"feel" is better on tubes. Solid state cannot knock you over like a tube amp can. 100 watts of tube sounds "bigger" than 100 watts of solid state. A solid state amplifier of much greater power would remain undistorted at higher levels, but the tube amp would sound comparably loud to the larger solid state amp.

Underneath this conversation, brands of tubes themselves I believe are somewhat overrated... which is what I was expecting to read opening this topic!

Here's a thought or two. BB King had great ton IMO and I heard him live in 1998 and he was playing through a Lab series and Gibson was not longer selling Lab Series amps so he was not endorsing them.  As a bass player I've played through both tube and solid state amps. My first was a solid state Standel, then a tube Sunn, then a solid state Acoustic, then an Ampeg, then a solid state Kustom and now I'm goofing around with an Alesis solid state modeling amp.  I liked them all. As a bass player I wanted consistency. Consistency was not always there with guitar players/twangers and their rigs. There are so many variables such as the stuff on their pedal boards, tube degradation, dirty power and line voltage drops.

I have read good things about Peavey Transtube amps. Apparently they compress like tubes. The only other thing tubes give is or so I have heard is more even order harmonic distortion but a type C Aural exciter can do that and you can control and tweak it instead of getting what the amp will give depending on the condition of the tubes and line voltage.

As a bass player I like some tube style compression and maybe tiny touch of distortion in my overall tone.

I still have misgivings about digital recording vs analog when it comes to tape compression and harmonics.

There probably is a lot of hype by the tube vendors e.g. matched tubes, soft vs hard tubes, American vs Chinese vs Russian vs Groove Tubes ect... I'd like to see some scientific testing and blindfold tests.

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

BB King had great ton

I think (almost) everyone in this thread agrees you can get great tone from solid state & modelling amps, I'm not sure that means tubes are "overrated."

As a bass player I've played through both tube and solid state amps

Bass is a different instrument.

There probably is a lot of hype by the tube vendors e.g. matched tubes, soft vs hard tubes, American vs Chinese vs Russian vs Groove Tubes ect... I'd like to see some scientific testing and blindfold tests.

I'm sure there is a lot of hype - like with any piece of musical gear - but that doesn't mean there aren't differences in vendors, manufacturers, etc.  I switched my Dr. Z from one brand to another and the difference was very noticeable - it started breaking up much sooner.  It was the same amp, but definitely different.  I couldn't care less about scientific tests, because a scientific test doesn't listen to or create music.  My ears are the only things that matter to me, since that's what I use.  That said, a lot of guys have done blindfold & A/B tests w/ the Kemper & AxeFX and they are very good.  Quite a few big bands have started using them almost exclusively.

Just my 2c.

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

Are tubes overrated? NO. End of story.

Amp: Firebird Musical Amplifiers
Guitars:62 LP SG , 02 FB VII, JB FB I, 76 Electra Omega, 64 Firebird V, 73 LPC, 61 Custom Tele, 59 and 60 Melody Maker
Effects: Mythos Chupacabra, Strymon Deco/Flint

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

Recently my financial situation made a turn for the better and I was able to replace a dying Fender Performer 1000 with a new pair of tube amps. Now originally I had a DSL100 and a 4x12 with V30's and GB's so the Performer was a huge step down but the DSL rig was just too much. As I toyed with the Performer and tried various pedals, I found a tone that worked, not great but acceptable.

Once it became apparent it had seen it's useful life, I decided to invest in both a HotRod III and a AC15c1. I retubed both with JJ's and replaced the HR speaker with a WGS G12 C/S which was suggested by numerous folks as a great pairing.  In the Fender loop I added a Catelinbread Dirty Little Secret, Keeley 4-knob comp and a Boosta Grande. I run the Vox clean and plug both into a Morley A-B-Y pedal as I'm experimenting with running dual amps. Tonight will be my first gig with this set-up at a county fair in which I'm leaving in about an hour.

Now I'm only comparing all this to a Performer 1000 so take it for what its worth, but I had forgotten how different tube amps respond to just about everything. Pedals, pinched harmonics, detail the works. At least in this very limited example, these amps are worth every penny.

Re: Are Tubes Overrated?

Until March this year the only tube amps I had owned were a Peavey Classic 30 and a Peavey Classic 50/410 but I decided I wanted a different sound so bought a limited edition Fender Deluxe Reverb "Fudge Brownie". Apart from the brown finish, the only difference from a normal Deluxe Reverb is the speaker which is alnico instead of ceramic and a lower rating (40w instead of 100w).

I really liked the sound of the amp and as is usual with Fender amps it came loaded with Groove Tube tubes. Right from the start I had problems with the tubes. The reverb recovery/vibrato channel gain stage (V4) tube was microphonic when I bought it so the shop replaced it with another Groove Tube. After a short while the normal channel pre-amp tube became very noisy and later one of the power tubes started rattling when I played a "B" note of the 5th and 6th strings.

So I decided enough was enough and I replaced all of the tubes in the amp. I put Tung-Sols in the pre-amp positions (V1 and V2) a JAN Philips NOS 12AT7WA in the reverb driver (V3), a TAD 7025A in V4, a JJ ECC83S in the vibrato position (V5), a Mullard CV4024 in the phase inverter position (V6), Tung-Sol 6V6GT in the power amp positions and a JJ GZ34 in the rectifier.

The change in tone has been huge. I liked the amp as it was but now it has been taken to an entirely new level. It is simply amazing and whilst it is hard to believe, I think I have found tone heaven!

Since getting the Fender I have started to use the volume controls on the guitar which I rarely used to to do. The amp has crystal clear cleans but breaks up beautifully. No mush or mud.

I have several guitars but with the Fender amp I am happy just to use my USA Standard Strat and Les Paul Traditional. I've also cut back on my effects and now use an Okko Diablo Gain+ overdrive, a Free The Tone MS-SOV overdrive and a Way Huge Aqua Puss Analogue Delay.

So no, I do not think tubes are overrated. But not all tubes are created equal.