Re: The Elephant in the room

jim m wrote:
rpic wrote:

Gun ownership is one thing, but what civilian needs an automatic assult weapon?

I used to think that too. I changed my mind. Although mine is semi-auto. There was a time you could own fully auto weapons. There will be a time in the near future I fear that you won't be able to own semi auto anything. Unless of course you are in a Mexican drug cartel.

Really though until you have been out in the red dirt openness of western Oklahoma and fired at a few cans against a riverbank you can't even imagine how much fun they can be. I'm sorry everybody but I'm a redneck at heart and we like owning guns.

Difference between me and the shooters mother who appeared to like to shoot and owned the guns that were used in the crime, mine are locked and no one can get to them but me. It is a shame that someone else's actions will be responsible for my right to property and that property being a gun to be infringed on. We live in a different time than when I was young and I'm not looking forward to living it unarmed. I am willing to say that not only my grand kids will not know what it is like I fear I will see them taken from me in the not too distant future.


I would hope that you would be willing to give up your redneck fun if it meant that what happened Friday would never happen again?

Re: The Elephant in the room

I would gladly give up the right to own any firearms to bring back the children we just lost in CT, the victims in the movie theater in Denver, and the 10 year old that just lost his life here in St. Louis this past week...

I think I can offer a bit of a different perspective on this.

I grew up around guns. My father was a St. Louis city police officer. I grew up shooting, and enjoyed it but I was never a hunter. My husband is a bow hunter and a fisherman. He has friends that will carry a sidearm while out fishing, because you never know when you might run into a crazed armed person on the riverbank.

Granted, bombs can be created and there is always a way to kill someone if they really wanted to. But, along with the lives lost in CT, people are losing their lives everyday, because of guns.

Many will argue that most people are responsible gun owners. That might be true, but that can change real quick when someone has been drinking or their spouse gets upset with them. One of the worst calls a police officer can respond to is a domestic violence call. Why? Because of the possibility of a normally reasonable person in a state of unreasonableness.

Thoughts of teachers carrying loaded weapons and everyone living in a state of fear is just absurd. Right now most criminals are armed... if they think that everyone is carrying, they are more likely to use that gun. Desperate people are going to still be desperate and take their chances.

W currently have an Amendment that gives us the right to bare arms. IF we want to be a progressive society we need to reevaluate that. What could be worse than living in a state of constant fear? If other countries have been able to have successful gun laws and almost eliminate crimes involving guns, wouldn't our lives be much more calm.... So big deal, you can't go out and kill a squirrel that you probably were not going to eat anyway.. Is being able to shoot at tin cans or a target at your local range more important than the overall security and well being of our society? I would much rather be robbed by someone with a knife than a gun... 

We can do a number of things to help our citizens... ban guns and then focus on our mental health system.

~R

"I don't think obsessions have reasons, that's why they're obsessions....National Geographic likes their pictures in focus..." Robert Kincaid

Re: The Elephant in the room

photogal wrote:

.....I would much rather be robbed by someone with a knife than a gun... 

We can do a number of things to help our citizens... ban guns and then focus on our mental health system.

~R

...i'd go for the gun! ...then there is always the chance the ar$ehole hasn't got any bullets!


...when the sh*t finally hits the fan,quite honestly,it aint gonna matter much whether you have a gun or not!

...in the meantime,there is not a lot we can do about the big Pharma' putting Mercury in vaccinations,apart from,refusing the vaccinations!

Everyone is born a genius, but the process of living de-geniuses them.
R. Buckminster Fuller

Re: The Elephant in the room

rpic wrote:
jim m wrote:
rpic wrote:

Gun ownership is one thing, but what civilian needs an automatic assult weapon?

I used to think that too. I changed my mind. Although mine is semi-auto. There was a time you could own fully auto weapons. There will be a time in the near future I fear that you won't be able to own semi auto anything. Unless of course you are in a Mexican drug cartel.

Really though until you have been out in the red dirt openness of western Oklahoma and fired at a few cans against a riverbank you can't even imagine how much fun they can be. I'm sorry everybody but I'm a redneck at heart and we like owning guns.

Difference between me and the shooters mother who appeared to like to shoot and owned the guns that were used in the crime, mine are locked and no one can get to them but me. It is a shame that someone else's actions will be responsible for my right to property and that property being a gun to be infringed on. We live in a different time than when I was young and I'm not looking forward to living it unarmed. I am willing to say that not only my grand kids will not know what it is like I fear I will see them taken from me in the not too distant future.


I would hope that you would be willing to give up your redneck fun if it meant that what happened Friday would never happen again?

I wish it were that easy. All I know is life offers no guarantees. As Benjamin Franklin said "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". I know quoting the founders isn't hip or considered relevant today but this seems to apply. The reality is my giving up my gun won't do anything but to insure my gun wasn't used in a future tragedy then again it would depend who I gave it up to. More deaths have occurred at the hands of tyrannical governments than any other means. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot. So if you take the original intent of the constitution the right to bare arms was to ensure a tyrannical government could not impose its will on the states. I do think it has strayed a bit from that. Like I said earlier this is not a black or white issue it is shaded gray. This discussion will not solve the problem either. 

I contend this is a cultural issue and not the gun culture that is to blame. We have a lot of troubled kids and young adults and as Cathy said and the above article discusses there is not enough resources for a variety of reasons. I saw where the Scottish school shooting in 96 spurred a handgun ban and no shootings have happened since. I'm not so sure a country the size of the US would be that successful. This a multi faceted problem and a simple act of making guns harder to obtain would be one way. Again I agree with Cathy about the gun show loophole. 300 million guns disappearing would be a tough thing to accomplish.

Re: The Elephant in the room

...sorry to appear morbid Jim,but life offers one guarantee only,and thats one day you'll die!

...also from research,the 'founding fathers' seem to have more wisdom and integrity than the current crop of puppets so maybe quoting them should become more hip!?

"Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have." - Davy Crockett

...i know he wasn't a founding father but maybe he should have been!? wink

Everyone is born a genius, but the process of living de-geniuses them.
R. Buckminster Fuller

60 (edited by hansamike 2012-12-17 04:57:06)

Re: The Elephant in the room

From a political perspective it took a generation to prove that cigarettes were the addictive killers they were, but proved it has been and Big Tobacco eventually had to 'cough' up.

There isn't such a problem proving that firearms are killers. Sure, for people like Jim and others firearms can and do provide a recreational pursuit, but as has been said elsewhere their sole purpose is to kill or maim.

So the proving of purpose won't honestly be an issue, but control and responsible ownership will be. How does the current law in the US control the change of circumstances of a gun owner?

How often are ownership credentials reviewed? or is it once you get the licence, do the training, install your 'safe' weapons container...thats it? People change. Personal circumstances change people; Alchohol abuse, drug abuse, divorce, unemployment....you name it. Any of those could fuel a personailty change to a person who may have for years been a responsible stand up community member but now is becoming unstable with access to a personal collection of assorted firearms.

I cite this example merely as a means of suggesting one area of weapons control change that could be focused on. The NRA and the gun lobby will fight every bit as hard as Big Tobacco to defend their self-interest under the banner of indivdual freedom and the current Bill of Rights. It won't be easy. Nothing worth having ever really is.

Any changes in weapons or ammunition control will be incremental probably over many years. Maybe a generation. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done or attempted. I think there is room to introduce more control and better controls whilst still affording the responsible owners their right to bear arms....for now.

It has to be all-Party. This isn't for Obama alone. A commission, whatever you want, filled with the most bilious pro gun lobby members as well as the most fervent anti-gun members. A body that from day 1 has to agree there must be change however small. Some ground has to be given up. Today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow.

The elphant is huge, the task enormous. America is a huge country, a great country. Its citizens have immense national pride, great heart and resourcefulness. This issue is NOT beyond the ability of the American people or its politicians.

I hope Sandy Hook is a defining moment for America, even if it takes 50 years, I think it would be one of the USA's greatest triumphs in 2062 to look back and say 'it started then. 14th December 2012'. Those children and their brave teachers won't have died in vain.

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012

Re: The Elephant in the room

I'll make my points again!

..

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
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Re: The Elephant in the room

I wish someone had pointed out to me that I posted the wrong link in my post on page 1. I am crestfallen and embarrassed.

Here is the correct link (again) while I finish the postzilla, which I shall post later today. It is a very short article, so I'm pasting it in its entirety. My point in doing so is that it demonstrates that not only we 'morally superior, high-ground claiming,' non-US residents view guns in a way that offends US gun apologists. Thankfully, there also appear to be at least a few Americans in the country who are prepared to stand up and call it like it is.

After the mass gun murders at Virginia Tech, I wrote about the unfathomable image of cell phones ringing in the pockets of the dead kids, and of the parents trying desperately to reach them. And I said (as did many others), This will go on, if no one stops it, in this manner and to this degree in this country alone—alone among all the industrialized, wealthy, and so-called civilized countries in the world. There would be another, for certain.

Then there were—many more, in fact—and when the latest and worst one happened, in Aurora, I (and many others) said, this time in a tone of despair, that nothing had changed. And I (and many others) predicted that it would happen again, soon. And that once again, the same twisted voices would say, Oh, this had nothing to do with gun laws or the misuse of the Second Amendment or anything except some singular madman, of whom America for some reason seems to have a particularly dense sample.

And now it has happened again, bang, like clockwork, one might say: Twenty dead children—babies, really—in a kindergarten in a prosperous town in Connecticut. And a mother screaming. And twenty families told that their grade-schooler had died. After the Aurora killings, I did a few debates with advocates for the child-killing lobby—sorry, the gun lobby—and, without exception and with a mad vehemence, they told the same old lies: it doesn’t happen here more often than elsewhere (yes, it does); more people are protected by guns than killed by them (no, they aren’t—that’s a flat-out fabrication); guns don’t kill people, people do; and all the other perverted lies that people who can only be called knowing accessories to murder continue to repeat, people who are in their own way every bit as twisted and crazy as the killers whom they defend. (That they are often the same people who pretend outrage at the loss of a single embryo only makes the craziness still crazier.)

So let’s state the plain facts one more time, so that they can’t be mistaken: Gun massacres have happened many times in many countries, and in every other country, gun laws have been tightened to reflect the tragedy and the tragic knowledge of its citizens afterward. In every other country, gun massacres have subsequently become rare. In America alone, gun massacres, most often of children, happen with hideous regularity, and they happen with hideous regularity because guns are hideously and regularly available.

The people who fight and lobby and legislate to make guns regularly available are complicit in the murder of those children. They have made a clear moral choice: that the comfort and emotional reassurance they take from the possession of guns, placed in the balance even against the routine murder of innocent children, is of supreme value. Whatever satisfaction gun owners take from their guns—we know for certain that there is no prudential value in them—is more important than children’s lives. Give them credit: life is making moral choices, and that’s a moral choice, clearly made.

All of that is a truth, plain and simple, and recognized throughout the world. At some point, this truth may become so bloody obvious that we will know it, too. Meanwhile, congratulate yourself on living in the child-gun-massacre capital of the known universe.

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n … z2FJHcw8kh

RIP Iron Man

Rock On and keep the Faith

63 (edited by bigjeffjones 2012-12-17 08:45:10)

Re: The Elephant in the room

I deleted this post due to loss of interest.

Rock On & Keep the FAITH
             It is
Blues From the Bottoms

Re: The Elephant in the room

Deep breath.....I will do my utmost to stop short of writing a book, since I've already written thousands of words on this subject in recent days. Oddly enough, I might just be the designated person to fill in a few of the shades of gray between the blacks and whites of this emotive and divisive issue.

I say this because while I am an American, and still feel like an American on many issues, and still consider myself to be an American despite having lived most of my life in Europe, I am at the same time also 'European' in my outlook on many of the things I believe strongly in. In essence, I sort of straddle the Atlantic.

The black and white - I heard a 'law enforcement professional' on CNN characterize the two extremes of this issue as follows - on the one hand the NRA - no controls, no impediments, if it moves, shoot it - and on the other extreme, what he called 'extreme liberals', whose position is 'ban guns', period. I'm sure that people associated with either of these points of view could take issue with these over-simplified definitions, but they'll do for the purpose of establishing the 'black-white' parameters of the discussion.

The gray - Europeans tend to believe that the US pro-gun lobby and people who love their guns are all right wing, and that US 'left-wingers' ('liberals') share the general European antipathy to guns. This may well be true in broad lines, but the shades of gray include conservatives who are not into guns, and liberals who are. This is also not an entirely partisan issue, as many elected Democrats are entirely pro-gun, and would block any attempts at meaningful reform. I am, however, not aware of any anti-gun Republican politicians in Washington, or elsewhere.

Europeans (as a generalization) of all political persuasions believe that US gun apologists are crazy, nuts, illogical, and irresponsible for attempting to justify and defend the current state of affairs in the US. Yes, this attitude then leads US gun apologists to think that Europeans see their own point of view as being smug, and morally superior. They are right. We in Europe (and here I include myself and all other Americans I know who live in Europe,) don’t have one instant of doubt about what the sensible and morally correct attitude of any modern society should be about guns. We know that we are right on this. We know that you (Americans in the US who are prepared to stand up and justify the current state of affairs by whatever specious arguments) are as dead wrong as can be, you are an historical anomaly, imprisoned by your rigid lip service to that damn Second Amendment.

However, we sometimes lose sight of the significant differences between the US and other civilized western societies, differences that need to be taken into account when discussing possible ways forward. (For the purpose of simplicity only, I use the term ‘we’ for the anti-gun view, and ‘you’ for the pro-gun side.)

Violence, especially gun violence, has become part of the DNA of our US culture to the point of obsession. We are nearly constantly entertained by it, profit from it, bask in it, even glorify it. Just look at the (by European standards) mind-boggling hypocrisy of US tv. You can't swear. You can't show any nudity, even if celebrated as God's natural beauty. But ,you can show all the violence you want in the name of news, or entertainment. Murders, beatings, decapitations,  and no one blinks an eye. Hardly surprising then that the pro-gun lobby is obsessed by maintaining its power and grip over Americans who refuse to see the writing on the wall, and who in turn obsess over having and keeping as many weapons as their hearts desire.

This fundamentally macho attitude to violence, and to guns in particular, is unique to the US, and has everything to do with the country's history. Yes, I also blame the mindset of all those generations who have been brainwashed to unthinkingly, and with a knee jerk reaction, refer to the holy Second Amendment as guaranteeing their “right” and “freedom” to own any number or manner of weapons that they can get hold of, whenever the very concept of 'gun control' is mentioned. I am fully aware that calling for a sensible, modern revision of the Second Amendment is tantamount to treason for most conservatives and members of the gun lobby. But really, there is no longer any alternative. This is not 1780. The weapons you were guaranteed access to were single shot muskets. The reasons for the guarantee were the frontier, Indians, the need to hunt for food, and a fear of the British. None of the original reasons or justifications apply today. Any nation’s constitution or bill of rights should be a living document, not an ancient piece of paper viewed as holy or sacrosanct for all eternity! The Bill of Rights is not etched in stone! Times change. Society changes. Methods of killing change. Adapt, change, revise, modernize, or continue to sink further into the abyss and be buried by history as the nation that self-destructed out of sheer, obstinate stupidity.

Other justifications used by the pro-gun lobby are as specious as the constant reference to an ancient document. ‘Guns don’t kill, blah, blah…’ Of course, someone needs to pull the trigger, but making access to guns so easy only encourages criminals and those with mental health issues to do outrageous things with those weapons once they have easily gotten hold of them. You can't pull that trigger if getting hold of that trigger is made very difficult, or impossible. (Man in China attacked school kids with a knife, 20 injured, none dead because he had no weapon with bullets!) Guns kill - more quickly and efficiently than any other method readily available. Did you know that there are more registered gun dealers than grocery stores in the US???? Do you find that acceptable?

‘There’s no point regulating guns because criminals will always keep theirs or have access to them, only decent people will be the dupes of gun control’. – Why then do we have traffic, or any other kind of laws if we simply proceed from the assumption that criminals will break the law anyway, so why bother having it at all?

I also disagree with constitutionalists about the First Amendment. All European nations enshrine freedom of speech, just as the US does. But all European nations also draw a line – certain hateful utterances or actions, like denying the holocaust, are illegal! These restrictions in no way affect the average citizen’s ability to express his opinions, they simply ensure that racial or religious insults of a gross kind are not permitted. Why have I raised the First Amendment? Westboro. These scum would not be permitted to do and say what they do anywhere in Europe. I draw a line in the sand for ‘people’ like them. I would never defend their ‘right’ to do what they do. I make this point to demonstrate that there should not be inherent objections by conservatives and gun defenders to the very idea that part of the Bill of Rights might be revised in line with the 21st century. Rigid constitutionalists under current conditions are like ostriches, with heads buried in the sand.

Ask yourselves – how could you have ever let things slip so badly? How can anyone who is not insane justify the existence of 300m THREE HUNDRED MILLION weapons in private ownership? And these are just registered weapons! How have all our traveling lives changed as the result of one failed shoe bomber? Why has absolutely nothing changed since Columbine, 31 mass shootings ago?

Is there any possible way forward? It’s probably too late, because I fear that there will never be a majority of politicians with enough backbone to seriously tackle this issue. Since even the POTUS, who so far has done absolutely nothing about gun control, has publicly said that, ‘something needs to be done,’ I will set myself up to be shot down by offering some suggestions off the top of my head. Sadly, we have to accept that it’s unrealistic to expect that many weapons would be turned in if a general ban was decreed, so most of those 300m weapons will just have to stay out there forever.

Differentiate by law between hunting/farming weapons and hand guns.

Implement and enforce a strict ban on automatic and semi-automatic weapons capable of firing hundreds of rounds in seconds. Collect as many of these that are in circulation as possible. No upstanding citizen ‘needs’ a weapon like this.

Implement a ban on hand guns in high density urban areas.

Educate the ignorant to understand that ‘gun control’ does not mean that the government is coming to take all your guns away, resulting in you being left at the mercy of marauding armed criminals. I have seen this ignorant paranoia expressed countless times in recent days. (There is a tragic irony in the fact that the killer’s mother justified her gun obsession for this reason.)

Revise the Second Amendment to bring it into line with today’s realities. Ownership of weapons capable of mass destruction and death should neither be any kind of ‘right’, nor any kind of ‘freedom’. (Those who choose to maintain this position need to realize that they are in a very small minority indeed amongst ‘civilized’ people of all western nations. If you don’t change, you will be seen by future generations as an anachronistic laughing stock.)

Implement, and rigidly enforce much stricter qualifications for gun ownership. (This also speaks to the mental health issue.) Make gun owners prove their fitness to own weapons regularly after they have purchased them.

Implement a ‘sin tax’ on bullets. Make bullets ridiculously expensive, say $50 each, or even more (an excellent extra source of revenue!)

Finally, perhaps as a glimmer of hope, I offer the following poll results from a large US sports forum that I frequent, where I am one of very few non-US based posters, and where the following results surprised me, since almost all posters there are ‘real Americans’ and not ‘foreign’ liberals like me. An overwhelming majority agrees that something needs to be done, while the numbers advocating either a complete ban (unrealistic, sadly) or a strict adherence to the status quo (madness) are more or less equal.

    .

Yes, we need more strict gun laws         60    
Yes, we need to ban guns entirely         20    
Yes, we need deeper screenings of purchasers     50    

Yes, we need to abide further by the Constitution     8    
No, we need to eliminate gun control practices     4    
No, the current policy is what the Constitution intends 8    
No, the current policy as-is is fine 11    
Other - explain     2


(Apologies for the length, and no personal offense to anyone intended!)

RIP Iron Man

Rock On and keep the Faith

Re: The Elephant in the room

rpic wrote:

Gun ownership is one thing, but what civilian needs an automatic assult weapon?


I'll stick with this.....See ya'll on another page.

Re: The Elephant in the room

Strong opinions by all, but I think it's time to move on and end the debate.  Something may or may not be done and the only thing I can say is contact your congressman and voice your outrage/disgust.  The age of the victims coupled with the holiday season makes this incident especially heinous and difficult to comprehend.  I personally think what happened friday is an exclamation point to a long run on sentence of tragedy.  sad

Re: The Elephant in the room

I agree auto weapons and extended magazines are not something the average gun owner needs or usually wants. i'd have no issue with the restriction or banning but they always will be around to get illegally.

The private possession of guns is sacrosanct in the US. No amount of laws will stop maniacs or criminals from acquiring and using weapons. There are too many guns around, anyone can get a gun if they want to, legally or otherwise.

Australia banned all weapon ownership by private citizens in 2000 thinking it would make the country safer. There has been a 45% increase in armed robbery since the ban.

The glorification of violence by Hollywood and the media must have a bearing on the increase in gun violence. This stuff was not nearly as prevalent before the media began to show violent carnage on a daily basis. Most of these massacres have been done by white males in their late teens or early 20's, about the age that has been exposed to this for their whole life. There probably is a  relationship there that triggers the very small percentage of mentally unstable people.

Our freedom will always include an element of risk that sadly includes random loss of life by guns or otherwise. That is the price we pay for our free society.
Rick

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Re: The Elephant in the room

Amsterhammer wrote:

Deep breath.....I will do my utmost to stop short of writing a book, since I've already written thousands of words on this subject in recent days. Oddly enough, I might just be the designated person to fill in a few of the shades of gray between the blacks and whites of this emotive and divisive issue.

I say this because while I am an American, and still feel like an American on many issues, and still consider myself to be an American despite having lived most of my life in Europe, I am at the same time also 'European' in my outlook on many of the things I believe strongly in. In essence, I sort of straddle the Atlantic.

The black and white - I heard a 'law enforcement professional' on CNN characterize the two extremes of this issue as follows - on the one hand the NRA - no controls, no impediments, if it moves, shoot it - and on the other extreme, what he called 'extreme liberals', whose position is 'ban guns', period. I'm sure that people associated with either of these points of view could take issue with these over-simplified definitions, but they'll do for the purpose of establishing the 'black-white' parameters of the discussion.

The gray - Europeans tend to believe that the US pro-gun lobby and people who love their guns are all right wing, and that US 'left-wingers' ('liberals') share the general European antipathy to guns. This may well be true in broad lines, but the shades of gray include conservatives who are not into guns, and liberals who are. This is also not an entirely partisan issue, as many elected Democrats are entirely pro-gun, and would block any attempts at meaningful reform. I am, however, not aware of any anti-gun Republican politicians in Washington, or elsewhere.

Europeans (as a generalization) of all political persuasions believe that US gun apologists are crazy, nuts, illogical, and irresponsible for attempting to justify and defend the current state of affairs in the US. Yes, this attitude then leads US gun apologists to think that Europeans see their own point of view as being smug, and morally superior. They are right. We in Europe (and here I include myself and all other Americans I know who live in Europe,) don’t have one instant of doubt about what the sensible and morally correct attitude of any modern society should be about guns. We know that we are right on this. We know that you (Americans in the US who are prepared to stand up and justify the current state of affairs by whatever specious arguments) are as dead wrong as can be, you are an historical anomaly, imprisoned by your rigid lip service to that damn Second Amendment.

However, we sometimes lose sight of the significant differences between the US and other civilized western societies, differences that need to be taken into account when discussing possible ways forward. (For the purpose of simplicity only, I use the term ‘we’ for the anti-gun view, and ‘you’ for the pro-gun side.)

Violence, especially gun violence, has become part of the DNA of our US culture to the point of obsession. We are nearly constantly entertained by it, profit from it, bask in it, even glorify it. Just look at the (by European standards) mind-boggling hypocrisy of US tv. You can't swear. You can't show any nudity, even if celebrated as God's natural beauty. But ,you can show all the violence you want in the name of news, or entertainment. Murders, beatings, decapitations,  and no one blinks an eye. Hardly surprising then that the pro-gun lobby is obsessed by maintaining its power and grip over Americans who refuse to see the writing on the wall, and who in turn obsess over having and keeping as many weapons as their hearts desire.

This fundamentally macho attitude to violence, and to guns in particular, is unique to the US, and has everything to do with the country's history. Yes, I also blame the mindset of all those generations who have been brainwashed to unthinkingly, and with a knee jerk reaction, refer to the holy Second Amendment as guaranteeing their “right” and “freedom” to own any number or manner of weapons that they can get hold of, whenever the very concept of 'gun control' is mentioned. I am fully aware that calling for a sensible, modern revision of the Second Amendment is tantamount to treason for most conservatives and members of the gun lobby. But really, there is no longer any alternative. This is not 1780. The weapons you were guaranteed access to were single shot muskets. The reasons for the guarantee were the frontier, Indians, the need to hunt for food, and a fear of the British. None of the original reasons or justifications apply today. Any nation’s constitution or bill of rights should be a living document, not an ancient piece of paper viewed as holy or sacrosanct for all eternity! The Bill of Rights is not etched in stone! Times change. Society changes. Methods of killing change. Adapt, change, revise, modernize, or continue to sink further into the abyss and be buried by history as the nation that self-destructed out of sheer, obstinate stupidity.

Other justifications used by the pro-gun lobby are as specious as the constant reference to an ancient document. ‘Guns don’t kill, blah, blah…’ Of course, someone needs to pull the trigger, but making access to guns so easy only encourages criminals and those with mental health issues to do outrageous things with those weapons once they have easily gotten hold of them. You can't pull that trigger if getting hold of that trigger is made very difficult, or impossible. (Man in China attacked school kids with a knife, 20 injured, none dead because he had no weapon with bullets!) Guns kill - more quickly and efficiently than any other method readily available. Did you know that there are more registered gun dealers than grocery stores in the US???? Do you find that acceptable?

‘There’s no point regulating guns because criminals will always keep theirs or have access to them, only decent people will be the dupes of gun control’. – Why then do we have traffic, or any other kind of laws if we simply proceed from the assumption that criminals will break the law anyway, so why bother having it at all?

I also disagree with constitutionalists about the First Amendment. All European nations enshrine freedom of speech, just as the US does. But all European nations also draw a line – certain hateful utterances or actions, like denying the holocaust, are illegal! These restrictions in no way affect the average citizen’s ability to express his opinions, they simply ensure that racial or religious insults of a gross kind are not permitted. Why have I raised the First Amendment? Westboro. These scum would not be permitted to do and say what they do anywhere in Europe. I draw a line in the sand for ‘people’ like them. I would never defend their ‘right’ to do what they do. I make this point to demonstrate that there should not be inherent objections by conservatives and gun defenders to the very idea that part of the Bill of Rights might be revised in line with the 21st century. Rigid constitutionalists under current conditions are like ostriches, with heads buried in the sand.

Ask yourselves – how could you have ever let things slip so badly? How can anyone who is not insane justify the existence of 300m THREE HUNDRED MILLION weapons in private ownership? And these are just registered weapons! How have all our traveling lives changed as the result of one failed shoe bomber? Why has absolutely nothing changed since Columbine, 31 mass shootings ago?

Is there any possible way forward? It’s probably too late, because I fear that there will never be a majority of politicians with enough backbone to seriously tackle this issue. Since even the POTUS, who so far has done absolutely nothing about gun control, has publicly said that, ‘something needs to be done,’ I will set myself up to be shot down by offering some suggestions off the top of my head. Sadly, we have to accept that it’s unrealistic to expect that many weapons would be turned in if a general ban was decreed, so most of those 300m weapons will just have to stay out there forever.

Differentiate by law between hunting/farming weapons and hand guns.

Implement and enforce a strict ban on automatic and semi-automatic weapons capable of firing hundreds of rounds in seconds. Collect as many of these that are in circulation as possible. No upstanding citizen ‘needs’ a weapon like this.

Implement a ban on hand guns in high density urban areas.

Educate the ignorant to understand that ‘gun control’ does not mean that the government is coming to take all your guns away, resulting in you being left at the mercy of marauding armed criminals. I have seen this ignorant paranoia expressed countless times in recent days. (There is a tragic irony in the fact that the killer’s mother justified her gun obsession for this reason.)

Revise the Second Amendment to bring it into line with today’s realities. Ownership of weapons capable of mass destruction and death should neither be any kind of ‘right’, nor any kind of ‘freedom’. (Those who choose to maintain this position need to realize that they are in a very small minority indeed amongst ‘civilized’ people of all western nations. If you don’t change, you will be seen by future generations as an anachronistic laughing stock.)

Implement, and rigidly enforce much stricter qualifications for gun ownership. (This also speaks to the mental health issue.) Make gun owners prove their fitness to own weapons regularly after they have purchased them.

Implement a ‘sin tax’ on bullets. Make bullets ridiculously expensive, say $50 each, or even more (an excellent extra source of revenue!)

Finally, perhaps as a glimmer of hope, I offer the following poll results from a large US sports forum that I frequent, where I am one of very few non-US based posters, and where the following results surprised me, since almost all posters there are ‘real Americans’ and not ‘foreign’ liberals like me. An overwhelming majority agrees that something needs to be done, while the numbers advocating either a complete ban (unrealistic, sadly) or a strict adherence to the status quo (madness) are more or less equal.

    .

Yes, we need more strict gun laws         60    
Yes, we need to ban guns entirely         20    
Yes, we need deeper screenings of purchasers     50    

Yes, we need to abide further by the Constitution     8    
No, we need to eliminate gun control practices     4    
No, the current policy is what the Constitution intends 8    
No, the current policy as-is is fine 11    
Other - explain     2


(Apologies for the length, and no personal offense to anyone intended!)

Very impressive and well-reasoned post, I think I am with you on almost all of the points you made. Only thing i would respectfully challenge would be your stance on the First Amendment, and that 'drawing a line' on freedom of speech is a justified means to prosecute people who speak of racial hatred & 'Holocaust denial', and other immoral ramblings of that nature.
I feel that to censor anything is to rob ourselves of the choice to choose what we disagree with and what we abhor in a moral sense. Who do we elect as the individual who decides what we're allowed to hear or allowed to say, because that's what it would come down to, a group of people who decide what is too offensive for us to hear, as if we're children who don't have the intellect & ability to not let such hateful words/phrases/ideas illicit an emotional response from us.
Yes it's true that the Westboro Baptist church connotes hateful & terrible ideologies that can hurt or offend people to a point of great distress, and i do believe that picketing funerals in such a way should not be allowed. However i am confident that all people have the ability within them to not allow such individuals to cause them distress, if they look at the intentions of the antagonist (which more often than not, is purely aimed at getting some form of primal reaction from the target) and realize that there is no reason to be offended by such illogical & medieval preachings.
Imagine a world where no person was able to be offended by any hateful insult or ideal whatsoever, and you'd be seeing a world where insults & offensive remarks were obsolete, a waste of the antagonists time, as they would have none of the desired effect. But because humans still have frontal lobes that are not big enough, and adrenal glands that are too big, we react on primal instinct rather than logic, and people who seek to hurt you most will use this to their advantage and try to offend you as deep as they can.
If you need proof of how effective it is to play the 'offence card', look at how many people across the world are aware of the Westboro Baptist church now. If people had just ignored their idiocy & hypocrisy, then they would have remained an obscure little church in Kansas with members dwindling in double figures, without nearly 2000 followers on twitter, without a Wikipedia page, and without a number of documentaries made about them. They would have been dismissed and given no air time, but no, they're notorious across other continents and have appeared on prime-time talk shows, because people love to hate them, and proclaim their disgust & offence for them, and some misguided individuals even try to reason with them. Such waste.

Apologies for going off topic and for being extremely disjointed, although hopefully i presented my stance on all forms of censorship in a relatively cohesive manner.

Now, back to guns...

Me playing Joe's actual Ibanez Tubescreamer pedal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76jk58_vl2s

Re: The Elephant in the room

RickB wrote:

Our freedom will always include an element of risk that sadly includes random loss of life by guns or otherwise. That is the price we pay for our free society.
Rick

You think you're free? Try going anywhere without money, you'll find your choices and resources somewhat limited

Me playing Joe's actual Ibanez Tubescreamer pedal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76jk58_vl2s

Re: The Elephant in the room

RickB wrote:

Australia banned all weapon ownership by private citizens in 2000 thinking it would make the country safer. There has been a 45% increase in armed robbery since

Missing some figures there. The ban had a massive effect in reducing gun related homicides 45% and suicides 65%

71 (edited by ken 2012-12-17 11:30:10)

Re: The Elephant in the room

RickB wrote:

Australia banned all weapon ownership by private citizens in 2000 thinking it would make the country safer. There has been a 45% increase in armed robbery since the ban.
Rick

"Australian citizens do not (and never did) have a constitutional right to own firearms even before the 1997 buyback program, handgun ownership in Australia was restricted to certain groups, such as those needing weapons for occupational reasons, members of approved sporting clubs, hunters, and collectors. Moreover, the 1997 buyback program did not take away the guns owned by these groups; only some types of firearms (primarily semi-automatic and pump-action weapons) were banned.  And even with the ban in effect, those who can demonstrate a legitimate need to possess prohibited categories of firearms can petition for exemptions from the law."
"Given this context, any claims based on statistics (even accurate ones) which posit a cause-and-effect relationship between the gun buyback program and increased crime rates because "criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed" are automatically suspect, since the average Australian citizen didn't own firearms even before the buyback."

Source: http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

Interesting article about crime statistics in Australia, and how they do or don't apply to the US...

Re: The Elephant in the room

bigjeffjones wrote:

I deleted this post due to loss of interest.

Amen!!! There is no end to this debate, you'd all have as much of a chance of bringing peace to the Middle East. My advice.... know when to DUCK!!!

                                                                                      Merry Xmas!

                                                                                      J Dawg

What is success? Is it do yo' own thang, or is it to join the rest?   -Allen Toussaint