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Joe Bonamassa Forum → Off Topics → The Elephant in the room
A new topic for anyone that would like to discuss the ugly specter of mass shootings in the USA.
I just think this subject, although directly related, would be better served with its own topic.
I also wanted to address one erroneous piece of info: Although it is still a very ugly statistic, this is the 27th mass shooting since Columbine, not the 61st:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/1 … ?mobile=wt
BTW, let's try to keep it civil, or this will disappear faster than the proverbial fart in a windstorm.
BTW, let's try to keep it civil, or this will disappear faster than the proverbial fart in a windstorm.
Well Bill we can see how long this lasts but Cathy's topic got a bit sidetracked which I considered to be just a place to post your reactions and grief about the heinous act in Connecticut.
I have strong feelings about the Elephant you might be referring to. Won't take me to long till I would have to express them. Then I might have to ban myself. Or get in the last word and close it. 
So I'll start with a point I would like to make in reference to the article you linked.
I know that was in the US and thus didn't include the Norwegian shootings. Also the University of Texas bell tower shooting from the 60's which was pre columbine. What is noteworthy about those two was one instance the Texas shooter killed his wife and mother with a knife before ascending the tower and shooting 45 killing 13 one of the victims was pregnant. The rifles he used were all hunting rifles.
The other the Norwegian set off a bomb first before going to an island and shooting 170 or so killing 69. The shooter was the only one on that island with a gun. It was illegally obtained.
Tim McVeigh killed several in a nursery in OKC with a bomb blast. 19 children died in the daycare facility located in the Murrah Building. I don't think McVeigh targeted children they were collateral damage. Bombs are like that they kill pretty much indiscriminately.
We can't escape troubled people it appears. They are diabolical and yes I feel it is too easy to acquire a gun. Guns are often not secured nor do people have the proper training before they poses firearms. People don't take the responsibility of ownership serious enough. This shooting coupled with the Colorado movie shootings and the Congresswoman will start the gun control debate once again. It is a topic so polarizing like many of the other social questions that were at issue for many voters this last election cycle and it will never be settled by discussing here. Any body who might want to discuss this I have a Facebook page where I don't mind dusting it up on these subjects but really don't think it is appropriate here. You can probably guess my position from this post it is not a black and white issue though there are several shades of gray I can embrace.
I feel ya Jim. Gray indeed. But I told my wife point blank after Va Tech, If I was there or anyone responsible, yet fearless in their faith, had been there packing...
Only one would have died...at the most... if even him. I am not a violent or ignorant man. I weep and I pray for them all. I have some lines though, crippled though I may be, you will not cross.
I have talked down a bar in the past, on the edge of spilling blood into the streets, by force of personality and the LOVE of my fellow man. I was unarmed...they were grown.
...but not this time...like the other times...not the children. Not that brave young teacher who is more of a hero than you or me or anyone I know.
I will rest now and be grateful for what I have here with me now.
Doc Jones - truth teller, equalizer.
I named the topic "Elephant in the room" because that was the phrase used in Cathy's topic. i assumed this was referring to gun control, or lack thereof, but I certainly don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.
I agree that we won't solve the issue here, but there seemed to be a desire by some to discuss the issue of these mass shootings (especially in schools and especially in light of the nature of yesterday's incident). Perhaps there can be a constructive exchange of ideas.
Grew up learning firearm use and safety from my dad, so you know where I sit. Own, shoot and keep them. Acts of these types are nothing new around here. We've had several here in San Diego including a young girl who gunned down elementary students at recess with a rifle many years ago, and an armed student who was subdued by a couple of construction worker heros before he could do a mass killing just this year. None of these were legally acquired weapons. The kids got them from their parents. That would lead to irresponsible ownership and not securing the weapons as a mitigating factor. Human failure once again.
I've looked at the stats and the incidence of these hideous acts has actually decreased in the last 20 years. You can look at countries that have universal gun ownership and mandatory service and training and see that in Switzerland and Israel these things don't happen. That would pretty much put paid to the actual availability of weapons being causative, so it must be a social thing. There's a high incidence of mass killing around the Holiday season, maybe due to the seasonal angst many feel. Mentally deranged people will do what they will regardless of laws or restrictions so making a new set of laws only gives a false sense of security to those that want controls placed on others. There are plenty of laws now that do nothing to keep these things from happening. The shooter this week had tried to buy guns just a week ago and was turned away due to the local laws. He stole his mother's guns, killed her then went on his rampage. He had a history of mental disorder. Courts have released mentally ill people en masse on civil liberty issues who had been institutionalized. With no one to force a bipolar or schizophrenic to take their meds, bad things can and will happen again.
It is a very polarizing and complicated issue. I doubt it will ever lead to a solution, just more hard feelings from folk who act from emotion instead of cold logic.
Rick
...there are far more than 50 shades of grey between the black and the white,they are many Elephants in your Living room... they have been there all your life,people just never noticed them,awakening to the realities of what is really 'reality' is a long journey,a whole new learning experience which can only be self taught,but first people have to wake up and acknowledge their current understanding of all things is false,nothing in this World works how you have been conditioned into 'thinking' it does! ...the Systems of Evil that operate on this planet have been here a very long time and it aint gonna change unless,on mass,the people wake up and finally choose to see whats been actually starring them in the face all their lives,hiding in their apathetic bubble,living in ignorant bliss,the 'ignorance' will last as long as the people wish and choose to remain in such a dumbed down state,the 'bliss' part of the apathetic bubble will be short lived... the Elephant in the living room is about to trample many underfoot! ...sadly!
As i see it, there is no grey area here, and you are deluding yourselves with such a claim. No Civilians should have guns whatsoever. Now i've made my stance clear i'll defend it as eloquently as i can without letting emotions cloud my logic.
Guns. Facilitate. Mass. Killings. I've never heard of 20 kids being massacred in hand to hand combat, and there was a case in China where a man attacked over 20 children with only a knife at a school in Henan, number of fatalities? Zero!
Rick you've put forward a few points i'd like to respectfully take issue with.
First you put forward the valid point that many of these incidents & others like it were executed with illegally obtained fire-arms ie: stolen from family members, seems to be the only example that comes up.
You say that they would get their hands on guns regardless of legislation & that laws do nothing to prevent this from happening.
I'll answer that by asking you a question in response.
How would these individuals get their hands on a gun if their parents never had guns? and everyone they know and had access to didn't have a gun? and, like here in the UK, there'd be no avenues for obtaining a firearm that wasn't both extremely difficult/dangerous/expensive for the individual, and wasn't also extremely isolated & rare in possibility?
If you can give me one irrefutable piece of evidence that suggests that removing guns from civilians & law enforcement alike, would not put a massive dent into these sort of statistics, that doesn't include the words 'It's in our constitution' or 'some people like collecting them', then i will HAPPILY and WILLINGLY concede to your superior logic.
Now i'll tersely address the issue of the Second Amendment. First of all, the word amendment gets lost on some Americans these days, as it openly states that they were added to the Constitution at a latter date when the fallible guys (Yes these guys were not perfect & did not have all the answers believe it or not) who wrote it realized some new ideas that might be in the best interest of the American people. So logic dictates that you should be able to 'amend' your 'amendments'.
Also, these amendments were enacted in 1791, your country was not even 15 years old (we all know how inconsistent 15 year olds can be, haha) and over 220 years have passed since then. The world and peoples values have changed dramatically since then, not to mention Slavery being abolished 50 years AFTER this declaration. Which means we have to embrace the fact that nostalgia & tradition hold no place in a world of reason & logic, and therefore your laws should reflect the reality of present society, because as a species, we evolve, so should our laws, otherwise they hold us back in the dark ages when we still hadn't worked out that Black people are human aswell.
I also have to ask why Americans are so enamored by firearms, to the point of actually collecting them. They are instruments of death, made with the express purpose of piercing the flesh of an antagonist at such a rate that it either completely disables them or robs them of all consciousness that life gave them. I question the values & sanity of anyone who anglicizes such things, find another hobby, one that doesn't indirectly encourage usage of them that eventually leads to someone's child being killed.
You also mention that these incidents have decreased over the past 20 years.
Here you are likening these atrocities to some form of epidemic, with so many incidents that we can accurately ascertain whether the numbers have went down in such a small time frame. When the number of such incidents is so low within a given time frame, we don't have enough data to suggest their increase or decline in occurence, as the cases are subjective to circumstance. So come back with that argument in 50 years when there's been mabye 1000 other examples for us to extrapolate such findings.
Also, EVEN if your argument made sense, and that the cases were more infrequent, wouldn't that be because society has changed since the past, and that we take better care of our Psychopaths now than we did 20 years ago? At NO point would that even suggest anything to do with Gun legislation. So your 'It must be a social thing' argument is only your own speculative opinion and you've not shown evidence that cannot be refuted.
In order to prevent anyone coming back at me with some half-researched rebuttals filled with flawed 'facts', i'll fire some statistics at you, that are easily found and you can look them up further yourselves.
The USA's domestic homicide rate is 3.5 times higher than that of the UK, which makes it a higher homicide rate than that of Palestine, India, Iran, Libya, and over twice that of Israel and Iraq.
60% of those homicides found in the USA, are caused by guns.
I encourage you to Research that yourselves. Try saying it's a social thing now, And the point you made about it being seasonally correlated and possibly caused by 'Holiday angst' is laughable, Psychopathic mindsets kind of speak for themselves in that they are aggravated by things not associated with normal causes of stress. Once again you put forward merely speculation, no evidence.
And this idea you had of comparing these statistics to those of Israel & Switzerland??? Very different cultures & people with different values and issues. Comparing the Apples of the passive nation of Switzerland and the religiously aggravated Oranges of the nation of Israel does not translate into sound logic. I politely ask you to reassess what you deem to be 'cold logic' Rick, as this is a weighty issue and demands care in it's responses illicited from the likes of us.
It's simple, if no-one has guns, then you don't need one to 'protect yourself' from people who won't be armed. And to the deluded people that think criminals will get guns regardless of laws, please come over to Scotland and wait for the very rare case that someone has a thief enter their property, they NEVER have firearms, and on the rare cases that firearms turn up in this country, there is such shock and action regarding it that they take up the headlines because they are so few & far between, I myself have never seen or know anyone else who has been presented with a real gun. We don't get movie theaters being massacred, not because we don't have our own Psychopaths (every country does), but because the chances of them getting at least a handgun over here are extremely rare, and, being Psychotic, they never have the means or resources to get them.
I will wrap up by saying that i feel it's a moral no-brainer that guns should be outlawed and removed from the hands of civilians & the public interface portion of law enforcement, whose weapons are not deterrents but more likely aggressors that fuel the public's unsubstantiated claims to 'bear arms' for 'home protection'.
The sad thing is that I'm confident this will not be the case anytime soon, as to even mention 'Gun control' is political suicide, because 89% of Americans are against Gun control of any kind, never mind total firearm abolishment. Obama was probably crying in his speech because he knows he has to address this hot topic, although now i mention it, I saw no tears, but that's irrelevant.
Everyone's quick to offer prayers but not many offer action or support to causes that can prevent someone else's children (including your own) being needlessly killed by someone who has easy access to guns.
I put forward all my points & arguments in a non-obtrusive spirit & hope people do not misinterpret what i have said
Frazer
A new topic for anyone that would like to discuss the ugly specter of mass shootings in the USA.
I just think this subject, although directly related, would be better served with its own topic.
I also wanted to address one erroneous piece of info: Although it is still a very ugly statistic, this is the 27th mass shooting since Columbine, not the 61st:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/1 … ?mobile=wt
Hi Bill, i stand corrected on that number - don't know where i picked that number from, Sorry! The correct figure is still .... as you say, ' is still a very ugly statistic'.
Thanks for starting this thread - but not sure how long it will remain up. Lets wait and see!
There's no misinterpreting what you said. You have made some serious assumptions yourself. Most of which I disagree with. You have erroneously claimed the moral high ground and you have lumped all Americans in a bucket that you smugly deem inferior.
How can you say that we're deluded and then present your own opinion as fact? Our culture is different from yours (not just Israel & Switzerland) although hypocrites abound aplenty the world over.
It's all gray. It's the human condition. You blame guns for the actions of a psycho. Do you blame Scotch for the guy who drives drunk? Is it MacDonalds fault that some people are fat swine?
A guy with a box cutter took down a plane. A guy with a firearm could have taken him down, instead.
There is no pat answer. Live a little longer...
There's no misinterpreting what you said. You have made some serious assumptions yourself. Most of which I disagree with. You have erroneously claimed the moral high ground and you have lumped all Americans in a bucket that you smugly deem inferior.
How can you say that we're deluded and then present your own opinion as fact? Our culture is different from yours (not just Israel & Switzerland) although hypocrites abound aplenty the world over.
It's all gray. It's the human condition. You blame guns for the actions of a psycho. Do you blame Scotch for the guy who drives drunk? Is it MacDonalds fault that some people are fat swine?
A guy with a box cutter took down a plane. A guy with a firearm could have taken him down, instead.
There is no pat answer. Live a little longer...
Hi Jeff, thanks for your reply, I appreciate you reading my gargantuan response.
You speak eloquently & with conviction Jeff, but i hear no facts or evidence to refute what i said in your rebuttal, only misguided representations of what you think are sound rhetorical questions, and laughable misrepresentations of what i put forward, so much so that i don't feel the need to defend my points in any depth as i feel it an unworthy investment of my time. Apologies if that comes across as condescending or vitriolic, however even if i do come across as such, it has no bearing on the validity of my points. Just because you find someone arrogant in their assertion, does that make what they say instantly inadmissible?
If you honestly think that i said that guns are to blame for the ACTIONS of a Psycho, then i must ask where did you learn to interpret texts of the transparency displayed in my post? The Guns are to blame for the RESULT of the actions of the Pyscho, if the Psycho's actions had been carried out with a Knife (like in the Henan examples) then the RESULT would have been drastically different. The Gun is an agent that is abused by such people, and an unnecessarily easy to obtain agent at that. I feel i was very clear on that so i have to question how attentive you are to other peoples point of view. And before you say the same about me, i'd like to point out i addressed the main examples of 'Pro-gun' arguments and gave them time, research, and a thoughtful response.
Also a guy with a box cutter took down a plane? From this statement alone i can tell you were emotionally charged (and probably insulted) by my post as you have completely disregarded fact and logic at this point. A number of men with knives and what appeared to be a bomb (it was fake but the passengers didn't know this) took down a plane with not just these tools, but with organization, conviction (which translated into fearlessness and therefore instilled fear in their captives) and with a disregard for their own lives, which is a mindset that surpasses the childish notion of bravery. You speak of grey areas yet you conveniently dismiss incriminating ones when they don't suit your argument.
I never present my opinion as fact, i present facts as fact, and welcomed people to research the facts i put forward on their own. Mabye you were right to call me on lumping all Americans in the same bucket, as there are always exceptions to the rule, however i've still not heard a single good reason for your country's liberal use & ownership of firearms.
Sadly it's when i hear responses like the one that you just gave, that give me pause & remind me that i should withhold remorse when these incidents come up, as frankly your own close-mindedness is what allows these atrocities to come to light. It could be said that you bring it upon yourselves with your lax approach to firearms and mental illness. However i am not confident enough to fully assert that notion at this point as i am aware that i don't have all the answers, no 21 year old does.
A country is it's people, so it's your duty to be objective and find the solution to an issue, even if it's a solution you don't like.
Disclaimer: If all i'm going to get in response to my original post is thinly veiled insults and emotionally charged cliche's, then i won't reply further to such responses. I put a lot of time, thought, research, and self-editing in my post and i am not going to repeat points to every individual who just sees Americans being portrayed as dismissive and then ironically respond to me in such a fashion. Learn to stop being offended by things and then insults will become obsolete, respond with reason, logic, facts, and foresight, and even if you tear my argument to shreds, i will gladly concede so and share your views.
Well i am an American and i would Love to see more restrictions on guns. I cant imagine that the way to go in the future is to lessen restrictions. Lets make a difficult to get a gun, not easier
It amazes me when non-Americans look on from their perch and assume we are crazed as a nation. Gun ownership is cultural here. This is a society which has a large sector that possesses firearms for many reasons. Sport shooting is one of the main ones and shooting is globally accepted as sport. The Olympics has shooting competition. Home protection is just one minor reason to possess personal weapons, though it's in fact a valid argument since guns are ubiquitous in our country, especially in the criminal sector. The possibility of armed response is a very good deterrent to criminals and we have frequent reports of citizen response that has saved lives and property when the authorities were unable to quickly respond. As the economic situation has declined here in California, even the police in an undermanned and bankrupt city has advised citizens to "lock and load" since rapid armed response in emergencies is unlikely.
The 2nd Amendment of the Constitution exists. Opining that it is antiquated and that it has no place now is moot, especially coming from a non-citizen in an unarmed society. It can be amended by national referendum, but no attempt has never been put forth because, as you state, it would be political suicide.
Mass killings are a social aberration. Sometimes it is an act of terror to advance a cause, such as bombings. Sometimes it is an act of dementia or personal vendetta where guns are used. These situations exist and no amount of wishing will make them cease.
Stop wringing your hands from your assumed moral high ground and enjoy your (mostly) unarmed society Fraser. Ours is not, and won't be anytime remotely soon.
Rick
All I have to add Rick is that we have sport shooting over here too, and bird shooting societies are plenty. I took the time to educate myself about your society before I challenged it, please do the same before you vent your predictable arguments over a public forum.
I'll add no further to this topic, said all I have to say and i know if I continue to post it'll only antagonise people who clearly aren't benefiting from my points.
Let's not get personal about it though, it's a primal instinct that kicks in when our adrenal glands react when we feel threatened/insulted. No need for such a reaction to be illicited here
I am busy composing a postzilla on this subject. Please, let's not blow this very important discussion up before I have a chance to post it. I believe that I can offer a unique perspective as an American, who thinks largely European.
And Rick and Jeff, let's please not fall into the simplistic trap of dismissing, or dissing, someone's opinion simply because they're not American - or disparaging them as holding the moral high ground. I commend Frazer for his articulate and restrained post, which pretty accurately sums up how virtually all Europeans (irregardless of political persuasion) feel about the US 'gun issue'.
edit - meanwhile, please, please read this fantastic article, which clearly demonstrates that this is not just a difference of perception between Europeans and Americans. There are also Americans who believe in a sane approach to guns.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n … -guns.html
And please also have a look at this -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog … ?fb=native
Edit - apologies, I posted the wrong link above, correct one now added.
I am busy composing a postzilla on this subject. Please, let's not blow this very important discussion up before I have a chance to post it. I believe that I can offer a unique perspective as an American, who thinks largely European.
And Rick and Jeff, let's please not fall into the simplistic trap of dismissing, or dissing, someone's opinion simply because they're not American - or disparaging them as holding the moral high ground. I commend Frazer for his articulate and restrained post, which pretty accurately sums up how virtually all Europeans (irregardless of political persuasion) feel about the US 'gun issue'.
You know better than that George. At least in my case. I have lived through it. My opinion is well earned.
"No Civilians should have guns whatsoever." Not a fact, an opinion I disagree with. And I apologize for being hasty in my explanations...not a real patient man, sometimes. They were condensations to make my only point:
If you live long enough and/or hard enough, and/or face death & the devil often enough...It's all gray.
He looks good in a suit. (That's you frasierburns.) We don't have to agree.
MuchLove
BJJ FDOL
good call Bill on a new thread, - and respect to Jim for his post. As the person who first introduced the elephant into the debate on the other thread, yes Bill got it spot on, - the gun laws in America need serious debate, and from people, - not corporations. You have to question (well I do) how within the US political system a corporation can fund political opposition unchecked. Any politician speaks out against gun law and you are going to have gun manufacturers funding a campaign to discredit. That is VERY wrong as it excludes elected officials acting in a way representative of their electorate. This as I understand it is why no politician pre election is going to brings this serious issue onto the table.
Laws are made for the lowest common denominator in society, that is how they work. Speed limits exist because some people are incapable of making their own decision about driving at a speed to suit the conditions. Tragedy's like this horrific act of murder and the number of murders that you have from hand guns tell me and others looking in that your gun laws are not accounting for the lowest person/people in the chain. And because some shout loud that it is their right to bare arms we are supposed to think that makes everything alright? Why? What does that have to do with this? And then the saddest thing that I read on this yesterday was the call by some to arm teachers... Some of the comments on this debate over the last few days are just plain scary.
There is no moral high ground here and strange to make that accusation of somebody with a debate as important as this, - as Frazer ays facts are facts and statement made are well meant. And as aside a person from Scotland knows all to well because of Dumblane, - after that tragedy we changed our gun laws, - many people guilty of nothing were impacted by this and as a result gun crime reduced.
http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/interna … blane.html
I opposed those heavy restrictions back then in part because I have a half brother who shot had guns for sport on ranges, but looking back the price he paid was absolutely nothing in comparison to the lives of children or anybody gunned down.
I would have hoped that Americans would have been happy that people from other nations would want to add to the debate, again so sad to just assume that anybody from outside is excluded, - the other thread on this even makes the assumption that there are only American victims....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … ctims.html
British boy, 6, among 27 victims of school massacre
Amsterhammer wrote:I am busy composing a postzilla on this subject. Please, let's not blow this very important discussion up before I have a chance to post it. I believe that I can offer a unique perspective as an American, who thinks largely European.
And Rick and Jeff, let's please not fall into the simplistic trap of dismissing, or dissing, someone's opinion simply because they're not American - or disparaging them as holding the moral high ground. I commend Frazer for his articulate and restrained post, which pretty accurately sums up how virtually all Europeans (irregardless of political persuasion) feel about the US 'gun issue'.
You know better than that George. At least in my case.
"No Civilians should have guns whatsoever." Not a fact, an opinion I disagree with. And I apologize for being hasty in my explanations...not a real patient man, sometimes. They were condensations to make my only point:
If you live long enough and/or hard enough, and/or face death & the devil often enough...It's all gray.
He looks good in a suit. (That's you frasierburns.) We don't have to agree.
MuchLove
BJJ FDOL
Haha thank you, I'll take the compliment while I can.
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