• From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Topic: Question about Attenuaters

Ok I'm trying to wrap my head around these things I've never used or owned an attenuater nor have I the need for one since my amp is only 15 watts.  But I'm kicking the idea around buying a new amp next year and there is a nice amp that happens to be 100 watts available to me anytime I want to try it or buy it.  Anyway I was wondering these things:

1)  I know 100 watts is more then I need but if I had an attenuater could it be manageable without killing the front row and my the worry of the attenuater hurting either the amp or blowing while I am using it during a show?

2)  Most of the talk I've heard about attenuaters is that it cuts dB's off the sound for example 15dB.  If this is true can it attenuate enough for a 100 watt head to be manageable in a band setting.

3)  I know its 100 watts and to get a real nice tone it would need to be cranked but assuming it has a master volume would I be able to turn down low enough for a band setting in a large pub or club with out having to worry about using a attenuater?

4)  Could I simply buy a 2x12 cab instead of using the 4x12 cab to reduce volume instead of using an attenuater?

5)  Could I do it like Joe and put a plexi glass shield in front of it to make it manageable?

I'm not planning on buying it but basically I have a friend that has a Version 1 5150 peavey full stack.  He wants to sell it with a Peavey Wolfgang for $1700, however I think I could sell off the Wolfgang and maybe 1 of the cabinets...  That and I think he is going to give me a better deal on it.  Its nothing I need but it would be a 2 channel amp with lots of gain which is what I'm after right now.  I doubt I do it, but its a matter of it being something I wanted as a kid.  I'm just trying to see if its at all practical (which I know it isn't).

AD3THREE's Website

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Question about Attenuaters

BTW I'm not hell bent on the 5150 but there is a ton options available to me if I go the 100 watt route.  So please feel free to chime in about anything.

AD3THREE's Website

  • RickB
  • RickB
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  • From: San Diego
  • Registered: 2009-10-30
  • Posts: 12,198

Re: Question about Attenuaters

Technically, an attenuator is a resistive load that simulates a set of speakers but converts the power to heat instead of sound. It has a variable tap that allows only a small portion of the power to go to the speakers while the amp is running in the full bore sweet spot perfectly matched. It won't damage the amp. You can put any combo of speakers on the attenuator output that matches, but the sound level will be much lower so you won't be blowing out the folks down front. Good attenuators will pass an amount of power to the cabs that suits the venue. Have fun dreaming.
Rick

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RickB's Website

  • Registered: 2012-08-30
  • Posts: 16

Re: Question about Attenuaters

I have the Tom Scholz (Boston) power soak, it works great. I run a Mesa Boogie MK IV thru it and can dial in as much power as I want depending on who is in the house at the time. wink

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Question about Attenuaters

Well I read some reviews on guitarplayer.com and it was like they were writing to me.  Basically in a nut shell it said I would be crazy to take 100 watts of power anywhere unless I was looking for ultra clean tones, and all the extra stuff plus the fact I'm lazy really isn't a good match.  I think I'm going to continue my search for a high gain 15 to 20 watt amp.

AD3THREE's Website

6 Reply by NPB_EST.1979 (edited by NPB_EST.1979 2012-11-08 16:50:33)

  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
  • Posts: 5,807

Re: Question about Attenuaters

YES! I cannot live through a gig without an attenuator. I wish I could talk my other guitar into getting one for this Fender HRD.

I usually play a 100 watt amp for bar gigs (Rivera Knucklehead 100 watt head) through a vertical 2x12 loaded with EVM12L. WIthuot an attenuator, I wasn't able to get the master volume past 1.

I ended up buying a Rivera Rock Crusher Attenuator. Paul Rivera was one of the pioneers of the attenuator, so I trust his design over THD hotplate, etc. The thing is very straight forward, you turn a knob to the level of attenuation you want : 3, 8, 12, 16, 20, studio. The Studio one is cool, because you can play the amp at bedroom levels. When gigging, I usually have the attenuator set to -12db. There's also a line out on this one too for going direct to a PA. It can be switched to bypass which is full bypass so theres no load if you ever want to.

http://www.sweetwater.com/images/items/ … xlarge.jpg

The thing was around $400, but I like having a big amp behind me at a show. 100 watts would never drive my two EV speakers, so I'm not missing much by using an attenuator as I would with greenbacks or V30s. I need the EV's so the speakers can handle my theremin wide range of frequencies when I put it through the amp. The Rivera sound from this amp is my favorite of all the amps I own. It is an extra thing to carry to a gig, but it's worth it.

Here's Paul himself talking about the Rock Crusher. He talks about how these are made pretty heavy duty and to last.  This company is great, from California... if you call them on the phone, it's likely you'll get to talk to Paul Rivera JR. smile Great people.
http://youtu.be/F1GHg3gJCts

From what I know about 5150's, I thought some were around 120 watts... I think the Rock Crusher might be one of the only ones that can handle that wattage.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool
  • From: kentucky
  • Registered: 2008-03-06
  • Posts: 304

Re: Question about Attenuaters

you cant go wrong with a good attenuator.....they really do the job well.......

however, here's the thing i dont quite understand about all the fuss everyone makes about 100 watt amps being too loud etc.....i'm not an amp tech and I'm sure others can explain this better than me.....but

a 100 watt amp is only about 3db louder than a 50 watt amp.....and so on and so forth....most people dont realize that......i've owned several "low watt" amps that ranged from 20-30 watts and at 20 to 30 watts you can still peel the paint off of most walls even in a decent sized club.

to me the only real advantage to having a lower watt amp is that it is usually smaller and lighter and the real key is that you can push the power tubes earlier, thus achieving that sonic nirvana of having power tube and preamp distortion at the same time and at lower volumes.

but for me over the years I have always noticed a certain sweet spot exists for every amp I have ever played on and and I have never had to "crank my amp wide open" to achieve that sweet spot.......and in reality, even though i never thought the sweet spot range was overly loud nearly 90% of the time I played the sound man is always asking you to turn down anyway.

I own two different 100 watt heads right now and at super quiet bedroom volumes they dont sound as good as when you get to turn them up a bit but i wouldnt hesitate to put them up against any lower watt amp i've ever heard once you get both of them to appropriate band practice or stage volume.....or for that matter even above whisper bedroom volumes.

so in essence i'm saying buy an attenuator if you want things to sound slightly better at bedroom volumes....or buy an amp that you can dial down to 1 to 5 watts for the bedroom.

but under no circumstances do I think you have to worry about owning a 100 watt head and not being able to control it at all and get good tones out of it at lower volumes......unless of course it's a plexi then it may be a bit of a struggle....lol

masque's Website

  • From: London town
  • Registered: 2011-10-15
  • Posts: 99

Re: Question about Attenuaters

I used to really struggle controlling 100w heads and keeping the right tone from them until started using an attenuator.

Rivera Rockcrusher is the best, and least tone colouring/sapping one I've found and regularly use now. I'd still go for a 50w if looking for gain and had the option though as can push it that little bit harder still.

Regardless of the attenuator, a lot of tone I believe comes from pushing the speakers at times, so I'd also look at changing or monitoring which work best at the volumes you need to play at.

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Question about Attenuaters

After looking into this though I found this article from GuitarPlayer.com http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/all … ttage/7818 I've been using 15 watt amps all year basically and although it isn't what I'm wanting its working and its easy on me breaking down at the end of a gig as well.  That being said I'm not using any pedals just the gain of the Blues Jr.  which is very low gain and the volume control on my guitar.  More and more I'm finding if I had a clean sound and a distortion sound I'd be set.  Looking into the amp situation I think the Fender I got has a decent clean but I never used it out anywhere because I don't have pedals.  I'm thinking about spending money on some high end pedals, the big ones I'm thinking about is a Fulltone OCD, Wampler Plextortion for distortion(for that 100 watt mashall tone) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DdruianYYA and last I'm thinking this Love Pedal Kalamazoo as an overdrive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEQtwN6C … ure=relmfu The OCD might not be the pedal I want I was thinking about it as a boost pedal but I lied I do have a clean boost DIY mods pedal with 38 dB boost that I'm like so I might avoid the OCD unless your telling me its more important then the other pedals.  But I'm definately going to go out and get the Wampler when I can scrape up the money to try one out.  The goal is to have a Clean, Mild Overdrive, and a heavy Distortion for the drop d stuff or heavy songs in general.

AD3THREE's Website

  • From: Southampton, UK
  • Registered: 2011-09-06
  • Posts: 231

Re: Question about Attenuaters

I bought a Fender Blues Deville 4x10" version combo and almost gave up with it because it was just too loud when trying to get the valves to work.  SO, I found a used Tom Shulz Power Soak and have never looked back since - it has transformed the entire use and sound from the Fender - not only that it fits snuggly into the back on the cab as a permanent fixture.  Superb!

Gibson LP '89 Custom * Gibson LP '04 Classic * Gibson JB LP Studio * Fender 50th Ann. Deluxe Strat * Gibson Explorer Pro * Epiphone Korina SG * Michael Kelly Patriot Premium * Ibanez 105NT Artcore Custom * Takamine acoustics * Fender Blues Deville 4x10" * Marshall DSL100 and DSL50 * Marshall 1960A * Laney LH55 * Bugera V55HD * Bugera 212VT * Marshall 1912 * Roland Cube 60

Coolaxeman's Website

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Question about Attenuaters

Thanks for the tip I'll check into it.

AD3THREE's Website

  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
  • Posts: 5,807

Re: Question about Attenuaters

AD3THREE wrote:

After looking into this though I found this article from GuitarPlayer.com http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/all … ttage/7818

Whether I bring my attenuator, 100 watt head and 2x12 cab to a gig or my 15 watt Blues Jr is depending on what I feel like carrying to the car.

I love the sound of the 100 watt rig, and without the attenuator, I can still play bar levels - with the attenuator, I can crank it up all the way and use the attenuator to dial it back to even bedroom levels. To answer your question originally, it just put s more through the tubes so they need swapping more often.

I think you saw the youtube video I posted where I used the 100 watt amp and attenuator. The settings were in the details of the vid. smile

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool
  • macg1
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  • From: St. Petersburg, FL
  • Registered: 2010-01-21
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Re: Question about Attenuaters

but how do you guys deal with boosts and things using an attenuator.  I have had several over the years, good and bad quality ones, but i could never get a solo boost as the load between the speakers and the amp was limited by the attenuator.  i know that the Ultimate attenuator for example, at least one model of them, has a solo boost pedal built in for that reason.

Amp: Firebird Musical Amplifiers
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  • DougH
  • DougH
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  • From: Toronto, Canada
  • Registered: 2011-04-01
  • Posts: 1,705

Re: Question about Attenuaters

for amp's under 50w I would recommend the VVR circuit by Dana Hall added to your amp (and its cheap)
for amp's 50+ (aka 100) a more expensive option called London Power Scaling by Kevin O'Connor would be a good choice
both of these lower the B+ rail voltages within the amp without changing the tonal characteristics (too much) and can bring an amp to bedroom levels.

A master volume just throttles the output tubes so they never get to do their job, so an attenuator is best.

A tube amp is not like a solid state amp,
a tube amp does not give out more power as you change your impedance (aka load) like a solid state amp does.
That's why you select your Ohms for your speaker cabs.

there are a couple of ways of doing a resistive load attenuator (some are variable and some are fixed at DB's) once you find the volume you like it you change your tone controls, add a screamer or boost pedal to the front end, you'll hear that out the back end just like normal.

Resistive attenuators have a tendency to reduce your highs
Some like the Webber's (oppps I said that name that shouldn't???) have a high pass filter on them

---------------

(If only I had 1% of Joe's guitar talent)