1 (edited by frazerburns19 2012-07-24 19:13:59)

Topic: Any Jazz players/fans here?

I recently injured the thumb joint of my fretting hand recently and as i was unable to play guitar without a lot of discomfort, i took to refreshing and advancing my theory knowledge and notation-reading/writing skills in order to fulfill those young musical urges of mine.

Needless to say ive found a renewed love and interest for jazz, which was fueled all the more by a documentary series called 'Jazz' which filled me in on the innovative legends that are synonymous with the music, and the developments of the style & forms itself. Also, it was narrated by Keith David, no more endorsements necessary...

Ill spare you all the details of how ive greatly benefited as a musician, and its changed my perception of what music is 'about' for me, because i want to get to my motive for posting this....

...Anyone got any idea how to work out the key of a piece/section of music that, not only changes key every second bar, but doesn't have any dominant chords in it so you know where the 'V' chord is? Here's one of my favourite examples...

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/MclaughlinBook/Irish.JPG

...I know in the seventh bar it resolves on the I chord in Bb major, but before then my best guess so far has been that its a 'Bb maj - V, IV... Gb maj - V, IV... Dbmaj - IV, V' . And that took some serious time and attention to try and suss out.

Btw that example is 'A lotus on Irish streams' by the Mahavishnu Orchestra, Im in a big John Mclaughlin trip these days smile


If i only get one reply on this i'd be more than happy, as ive not seen much/any mention of jazz on this forum since i joined so its most likely it wont be relevant to most members at this point.

Also, if anyone has any thoughts/opinions/heroes/stories regarding jazz music in any way, feel free to share them, would love to hear what you have to say wink Im young, naive, and hungry for advice from more experienced members of this forum.

Me playing Joe's actual Ibanez Tubescreamer pedal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76jk58_vl2s

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

frazerburns19 wrote:

Also, if anyone has any thoughts/opinions/heroes/stories regarding jazz music in any way, feel free to share them, would love to hear what you have to say wink

I'll be ZERO help with your theory question, I'm afraid...   wink

As for jazz, yeah:  Pat Metheny (a year younger than me, grew up in a different suburb of Kansas City than I did), Earl Klugh, George Benson, Django and Wes (of course), Kenny Burrell, Al di Meola...

When it comes to jazz, though, I'm fonder of other forms (Ramsey Lewis, Maynard Ferguson, Arturo Sandoval, etc.)...

Terrance Shuman
New Castle, DE

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

Coach305 wrote:
frazerburns19 wrote:

Also, if anyone has any thoughts/opinions/heroes/stories regarding jazz music in any way, feel free to share them, would love to hear what you have to say wink

I'll be ZERO help with your theory question, I'm afraid...   wink

As for jazz, yeah:  Pat Metheny (a year younger than me, grew up in a different suburb of Kansas City than I did), Earl Klugh, George Benson, Django and Wes (of course), Kenny Burrell, Al di Meola...

When it comes to jazz, though, I'm fonder of other forms (Ramsey Lewis, Maynard Ferguson, Arturo Sandoval, etc.)...

Great stuff, also a big fan of Wes and Django (could listen to Django all day), they are the definition of natural talent smile
Also love Al Di Meola, he's a great example of the more composed side to jazz-fusion, He takes great pride in his arrangements and compositions, and rightly so, crazy to think he recorded Elegant Gypsy at age 23...

Im also a lover of the more avante-garde forms of jazz, and the free-improvisation featured on albums like 'Bitches brew' by Miles Davis, i love it because its so free and is such an honest form of expression, yet the players listening skills have to be extremely well developed to communicate in such an advanced way. Improvisation is becoming a lost art-form in most of todays music sadly

I still need to check out Pat Methany, his name has popped up a lot recently so i'll investigate further smile Thanks for the input Coach

Me playing Joe's actual Ibanez Tubescreamer pedal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76jk58_vl2s

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

Yes, but purists will laugh at the next sentence. I come from "The Eric Johnson School of Jazz".

East Wes
Manhahttan
Ciel
Rain
Hesitant
Magnetized

to name a few.

I would love to see Joe dabble in it a bit.

Gibson Custom Joe Bonamassa Ltd Signature Les Paul VOS # 31

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

frazerburns19 wrote:

I still need to check out Pat Metheny, his name has popped up a lot recently so i'll investigate further smile Thanks for the input Coach

Yes, you do, and NOT just because he's from my home town...   wink

If I might make a suggestion, start here:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EE … mp;sr=1-31

Terrance Shuman
New Castle, DE

6 (edited by Coolaxeman 2012-07-25 02:48:19)

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

Pat Metheny has been a big inspiration to me - not so much in being able to play like him, but in the manner in which he has almost a free-form way of expression in his soloing - very lyrical - and this is best shown in his work with Lyle Mays in the Pat Metheny Group. His chord work on acoustic is sublime - have a listen to this... (Ferry Cross the Mersey is beautiful).

http://www.amazon.com/One-Quiet-Night-P … at+metheny

In terms of blues/jazz cross-over, the best exponents are Larry Carlton and particularly Robben Ford IMO, however there are many more.  In terms of rock/jazz cross-over have a listen to Allan Holdsworth and Joe Satriani.

You've done the right thing studying theory - I'm not great with it and wish I'd spent time when I was younger.  I hope your hand gets better soon bud.

Gibson LP '89 Custom * Gibson LP '04 Classic * Gibson JB LP Studio * Fender 50th Ann. Deluxe Strat * Gibson Explorer Pro * Epiphone Korina SG * Michael Kelly Patriot Premium * Ibanez 105NT Artcore Custom * Takamine acoustics * Fender Blues Deville 4x10" * Marshall DSL100 and DSL50 * Marshall 1960A * Laney LH55 * Bugera V55HD * Bugera 212VT * Marshall 1912 * Roland Cube 60

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

I´m a  George Benson/ Wes Montgomery Fan and "Secret Story" by Pat Metheny got be one of my all time favorites.

For learning the theory I spend some time with the Real Book and a Teacher and played in Big Bands.
Improvising and understanding tunes with many key changes was really difficult and a ongoing process for me.



But without playing to much jazz nowadays I´m able to play more fitting for the changes in every kind of genre which is really satisfying.

For the question regarding the tune you´ve posted. First try to analyse what the main theme has to say about the intepretation of the chords and look out for sort of guiding notes. Another good approach would be to group the chords you can relate to one another and play the fitting key for them so you don´t have to change scales so frequently

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

have no idea on the theory aspect, but I've posted Mike Stern here several times and he remains my current fav. John Schofield is also worth checking out. and I do love the horns as well - Maynard, Dizzy, Chris Botti, Kirk Whalum.....

As corn through a goose, so are the days of our lives

9 (edited by Ian916 2012-07-25 17:33:17)

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

I dip in and out of appreciation of jazz, - well put another way I always appreciate it but am not always in the mood for it. - Jazz musicians are some of the best IMO, - jazz drummers very hard to beat, - and when they cross over into rock you get a very interesting sound, - example Charlie Watts, Bill Bruford and Matt Abts.... looking at him play a few weeks ago i would put money on him having some jazz influence in there.

My son's guitar teacher is a jazz session guitarists, - my chain of thought when looking for a teacher a few years ago being they are so precise in what they do and they know music structure better than most or else how would they play a song without structure...?

Went to school and was good friends with Iain Ballamy who is one the words best jazz saxophonists some of his stuff was really "out there" so have to say that it was he who introduced me to the sound of jazz without fully knowing way it was! I got into Loose Tubes, - from there into Ashley Slater who went on to work with Norman Cook.... - Hate music in boxes!!!

My YouTube channel with plenty of my Joe's videos dating from 2009 inc his first Hammersmith Odeon ones:
http://www.youtube.com/ian916fun

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

...Anyone got any idea how to work out the key of a piece/section of music that, not only changes key every second bar, but doesn't have any dominant chords in it so you know where the 'V' chord is? Here's one of my favourite examples...

One thing an old teacher of mine said which kind of turned things around was that composers often find chords to fit the melody, not the other way around.  Kind of backwards for this rock, metal and blues-raised guy that usually starts a song with riffs and chord progressions.  But for a song like that Maclaughlin piece, I think the chords are just there to fit the melody - "theory" be damned.  I usually just look for ii-V combinations to find the tonal center, but yeah, for that piece I don't see a whole lot of that.

My top 3 jazz players are Charlie Christian, Django and Joe Pass.  I guess Wes Montgomery has to be up there as well.  And Al DiMeola.  I'm not a huge jazz guy, but the last couple years I've been learning a lot of standards, building a bit of a repertoire, and it's been great fun (and great for my chops).

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

ZeyerGTR wrote:

...Anyone got any idea how to work out the key of a piece/section of music that, not only changes key every second bar, but doesn't have any dominant chords in it so you know where the 'V' chord is? Here's one of my favourite examples...

One thing an old teacher of mine said which kind of turned things around was that composers often find chords to fit the melody, not the other way around.  Kind of backwards for this rock, metal and blues-raised guy that usually starts a song with riffs and chord progressions.  But for a song like that Maclaughlin piece, I think the chords are just there to fit the melody - "theory" be damned.  I usually just look for ii-V combinations to find the tonal center, but yeah, for that piece I don't see a whole lot of that.

My top 3 jazz players are Charlie Christian, Django and Joe Pass.  I guess Wes Montgomery has to be up there as well.  And Al DiMeola.  I'm not a huge jazz guy, but the last couple years I've been learning a lot of standards, building a bit of a repertoire, and it's been great fun (and great for my chops).


Yea i think you're right about the chords being there purely to support the melody (as only the piano player is playing chords in the original recording, whilst the guitar & violin outline the melody), it reminds me of something i read in a theory book a while back, about chords acting as the vertical posts (of a fence) holding up the long horizontal lines of the melody. Im just a very analytical person who wants to know why these things work, so that i can have a greater understanding of what the composer was aiming for, and therefore i can replicate that approach if required.
Anyone got any tips on how to improvise over non-diatonic changes? Im still working my way around the modes of the harmonic minor scale

Thanks to everyone who has replied to this btw, im genuinely overwhelmed by the responses in such a short amount of time, and so happy to see people chiming in with their jazz influences, wish i could reply to each of your responses individually.

Anyone here currently/been in a jazz band?

Me playing Joe's actual Ibanez Tubescreamer pedal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76jk58_vl2s

Re: Any Jazz players/fans here?

Jimmy wrote:

Yes, but purists will laugh at the next sentence. I come from "The Eric Johnson School of Jazz".

East Wes
Manhahttan
Ciel
Rain
Hesitant
Magnetized

to name a few.

I would love to see Joe dabble in it a bit.

East Wes is one of my favourite tunes man, love the Wes Montgomery style 'thumb-strummed' octave melody.

As for Joe dabbling with jazz, im sure ive heard him throw a bebop line into some solos now and again, i think theres a pretty cool one in 'heavenly soul'. Im sure he picked up a few jazz phrases from Danny Gatton back in the day

Me playing Joe's actual Ibanez Tubescreamer pedal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76jk58_vl2s