• From: Sussex UK
  • Registered: 2009-07-12
  • Posts: 1,465

Re: The Football Topic

I hope that Harry keeps his head down and gets on with the job that he is employed to do. Read somewhere that his tax evasion case has costs of £8million attached to it.

Fair play to Capello for sticking to his principals. - Just not sure that John Terry is worth anybody walking away from a job for.

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  • From: Amsterdam
  • Registered: 2007-10-06
  • Posts: 5,249

Re: The Football Topic

Absolutely outrageous, beyond belief that this bent as a nine bob note wide boy got away with this. An account in his dog's name...he doesn't even know how to email, etc., yeah right. roll

This demonstrates beyond any doubt the serious shortcomings of the UK legal system in that the prosecution is unable to appeal a clearly wrong verdict, issued by a jury that believed in the ' loveable 'Arry' media persona hype. Sadly, because the media see no more suitable candidate (Roy Hodgson?) , this experienced crook will now become the next England manager. Disgraceful!

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-conte … apArry.jpg

RIP Iron Man

Rock On and keep the Faith
  • From: Amsterdam
  • Registered: 2007-10-06
  • Posts: 5,249

Re: The Football Topic

[mod hat on] It seems that my previous post may have inadvertently caused offense, which was most certainly not my intention. I would be happy to explain or apologize to the offended party, if I knew exactly what may have caused offense. [/mod hat]

[George] Anyone who thinks that my opinion of Harry Redknapp is a bit harsh, or even over the top, should remember that as a long time Hammer (since 1968), I have been particularly well clued in about things at the club since the internet era started. I have written on West Ham forums since 1999. I know things about Harry that are not general public knowledge. Hence my dismay at this verdict, and my disgust at the media image of 'good old 'Arry'.

I have been a member of a large, global, West Ham mailing list for 10 years. The majority of members there are in the 50+ bracket, and every single one of these well informed Hammers share the opinions that I have expressed about Harry.

RIP Iron Man

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364 Reply by RickB

  • RickB
  • RickB
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  • From: San Diego
  • Registered: 2009-10-30
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Re: The Football Topic

I feel your dismay George. Over here, justice is often dispensed by the best judges money can buy. It seems the same can happen over there too. roll
Rick

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  • From: Sussex UK
  • Registered: 2009-07-12
  • Posts: 1,465

Re: The Football Topic

Having just seen you post George I feel that I need to say something, - the bit that is offensive to me is not about Harry, - you are of course entitled to your opinion and you qualify the reasons why however the part about UK justice is not really required  and actually it is incorrect as there are separate justice system for English, Scottish etc law. Whether he is guilty or not he has been found innocent by a jury so anybody publicly stating that this is wrong is possibly committing an offence themselves. -(not wishing in any way to make an argument out of it and I do understand that football issues raise the temperature!!).

None of the "bung" Police led cases have led to successful prosecution, - what concerns me is the amount of public money and resource that has been wasted when there are far more important crimes taking place each week on the pitch itself that need dealing with. Clearly the English FA turns a blind eye, - the language from Liverpool players recently directed at the referee that was clearly evident to anybody who is over the age of 5 with any lip reading skills was appalling. They should be docked their Sky TV fee because I do not want to see that. - I do not have a problem with bad language, - it is teh lack of respect shown for the official that is not acceptable.  And as for Daglish's behaviour over the Suarez issue, - the man has sunk to the bottom of the barrel, - for me he was up until this one of the most respected players/managers, - but not any more.

The Fa's around the world are completely missing the point on what type of aggression needs to be taken out of the game, - hard strong tackles improve the game, - getting kids to compete with passion is so difficult, - I have 2 boys out of a squad of 15 who will give their all. Yet the aggression that should be removed is the foul language, lack of respect and abuse.

My YouTube channel with plenty of my Joe's videos dating from 2009 inc his first Hammersmith Odeon ones:
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  • From: Amsterdam
  • Registered: 2007-10-06
  • Posts: 5,249

Re: The Football Topic

Thanks for your reply, Ian.

I am aware that there are differences between the English and Scottish legal systems, but that wasn't really the point. The specific point I made, and which I think is absolutely fair comment, is that the prosecution in the UK does not have the possibility of appealing a verdict that is, in the opinion of very many informed people, patently wrong. This applies equally to the US.

The Dutch system (which certainly also has its shortcomings) is still in large part based on the Napoleonic code, but at least has the advantage (in my eyes) of enabling the prosecution (the Crown, the DA) to appeal against an initial not guilty verdict, whether this was given by a panel of judges or a jury.

I am perfectly entitled to express this opinion on an internet forum. We're not talking politics or religion here, I was simply commenting on the outcome of a trial of someone in whom I have more than a passing interest (for reasons already stated). In essence, Harry's defense amounted to saying, 'look, I'm not very bright and ok, I told a little porky'. To me, that is not an acceptable defense for someone whom the media are touting as the next England manager. It sounds more like the kind of thing you'd expect to hear from an habitual criminal desperately trying to get off. The fact that this jury accepted such a defense just proves that there is something fundamentally wrong. And Ian, I am absolutely positive that it is no kind of offense to publicly express the view that a jury got it wrong.

The fact that all of the bung trials have come to nothing, at great expense to the public purse, further underlines the shortcomings of the system - or are we to believe that the DPP launched a whole series of frivolous and unwinnable cases with insufficient evidence?

For the rest, I agree entirely with your comments and criticisms about where the FA's priorities should lie.

RIP Iron Man

Rock On and keep the Faith
  • From: Sussex UK
  • Registered: 2009-07-12
  • Posts: 1,465

Re: The Football Topic

Brack I do not see it as purely a racism thing, - it is a respect issue, and I made my views known above and even mentioned Liverpool, - who have now replaced Man United at the number 1 spot, - the spot being the most disliked Club in English football. - And this time disliked for the right reasons. Daglish is accountable, - Reina's behavior also surprised me yesterday.

The likes of Suarez are ignorant, pure and simple. He behaved appallingly at a world cup a few years ago when hand balling on the line, - the problem being his behavior after he was sent off. A person like that is a disgrace to the game. The other disgraceful player is rumored to be returning to Man City soon...John Terry is either the most misunderstood and wrongly accused player in premiership history or he is something else...?

My YouTube channel with plenty of my Joe's videos dating from 2009 inc his first Hammersmith Odeon ones:
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  • From: Amsterdam
  • Registered: 2007-10-06
  • Posts: 5,249

Re: The Football Topic

Disclaimer: neither this post nor any possible subsequent discussion is in any way politically tainted, nor are we discussing racism as such, since it goes without saying that everyone on this forum condemns any form of racism, whether in sport or in life as a whole.

I really have to take serious issue with your post, Brack. Not even your utter hypocrite of a manager stooped as low as you did by suggesting that Suarez's refusal to shake Evra's hand was in any way 'racist'. The non hand shaking incident should have remained a minor incident in an ongoing very sad affair. It has been blown up out of all proportion to reality by scummy journalists and by Sky Sports, whose reporter pushed Ferguson into making the post-match comments that he made.

I do not like Suarez. I didn't like him when he played for Ajax. I felt about him how all of us from time to time feel when our clubs buy a player whom we personally dislike, i.e. 'he may be a s-o-b but at least he's our s-o-b'. I would not normally feel any need to speak up for him, but I feel quite certain from everything I have seen and heard, that Suarez is no racist. He was surrounded by black players during his time at Ajax, played with and against black players in South America, and never was any accusation of racism levelled against him, until....Evra...a man with a history of making unfounded allegations of racism, a man clearly with a huge chip on his shoulder and an inferiority complex, a man who disgraced his country by leading a public mutiny against the manager. All neutrals with whom I have talked about this agree that Evra is a nasty piece of work, whose over-reaction to one word has been blown up out of all proportion, just like the incident yesterday.

As for Ferguson telling LIverpool they should get rid of Suarez - what an utter sanctimonious hypocrite! Did he get rid of Schmeichel when he was accused  of racist abuse against Ian Wright? Did he get rid of a player who attacked a spectator with a karate kick? Ferguson needs to shut up, he stands up for his players in the same way that Dalgleish does and he's got no business telling any other team what they should be doing.

Meanwhile, Suarez has apologized today, so hopefully this totally disproportionate coverage of an insignificant spat will now die away, but knowing the gutter press as I do, it won't.

edit - P.S. And let's not call Ajax fans racist when Evra gets booed and whistled at on Thursday, if he plays. They will be venting their feelings at the person, nothing whatsoever to do with his color. Just in case you're not aware, Brack, Ajax has traditionally had more black players than just about any other (ex) top team you can think of.

RIP Iron Man

Rock On and keep the Faith

369 Reply by viper007 (edited by viper007 2012-02-12 12:22:37)

  • From: Sweden
  • Registered: 2009-08-21
  • Posts: 263

Re: The Football Topic

Amsterhammer wrote:

Evra...a man with a history of making unfounded allegations of racism

Please, show me when Evra made "unfounded allegations of racism"?

What a lot of crap!

  • From: Amsterdam
  • Registered: 2007-10-06
  • Posts: 5,249

Re: The Football Topic

viper007 wrote:
Amsterhammer wrote:

Evra...a man with a history of making unfounded allegations of racism

Please, show me when Evra made "unfounded allegations of racism"?

What a lot of crap!

I'll try and find links, there were two separate incidents, both some years ago. On the other hand, Evra could have reacted to Suarez like a much greater player did in similar circumstances:-

Ruud Gullit, Chelsea's dreadlocked manager, also resorted to humour when he disclosed how he keeps his temper when insulted on the pitch.

"If someone calls me a black so-and-so, I don't take it as a racist thing because I am black!" said Gullit, whose team play Manchester United in another vital title game at Stamford Bridge today. "Take it as a compliment, it means they are probably afraid of you."

As one of the most gifted players of his generation, the Dutchman with a Surinam background was confronted by all kinds of abuse from opponents desperate to unsettle him.

"The key is that there is emotion in the game and if someone is red, you'll call them a red whatsoever," he said.

"The best thing always for every player, wherever he comes from, is to just try to play well and play your own game and then all these things vanish.

"If people are swearing at me that means they are afraid of me. That gives me a sort of superiority over them."

However, he draws the line at organised racism. "When Ajax played in Hungary the crowd made jungle sounds all the time when the black players had the ball. That is abusive," he said.

"That had nothing to do with the football game, it had nothing to do with emotions, it wasn't funny."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/ferg … 80049.html

RIP Iron Man

Rock On and keep the Faith
  • From: Sweden
  • Registered: 2009-08-21
  • Posts: 263

Re: The Football Topic

Amsterhammer wrote:
viper007 wrote:
Amsterhammer wrote:

Evra...a man with a history of making unfounded allegations of racism

Please, show me when Evra made "unfounded allegations of racism"?

What a lot of crap!

I'll try and find links, there were two separate incidents, both some years ago.

That's not true and we both know that. To try to dig up some other link, totally out of subject, is pathetic.

  • From: Sussex UK
  • Registered: 2009-07-12
  • Posts: 1,465

Re: The Football Topic

George the issue of Suarez being a racist or not is NOT the issue, - however what he did was to use a word to Evra that was taken and proved to be completely inappropriate, one that is linked to racism.  And he served his bad for that and even publicly apologized. In my opinion everything that Ferguson said yesterday about Suarez and LFC was absolutely 100% correct and I applaud him for having the balls to say it. - Unlike Daglish who IMO bottled it post mtach by claiming innocence (funny that every other person in that stadium saw what went on).

Evra be being on the receiving end of what was said has then had his own integrity questioned, - and this is very wrong and classic case of guilty party trying to divert wrong doing, - it reminds me of the dad that when I had to speak to him about his son being on his last warning for punching a team mate in the stomach flooring him responded to me that the kid rolling around on the floor winded must have said something to deserve it. If Suarez and Daglish were honorable decent people they would have kept to the issue of what Suarez said, apologized, shook hands and moved on. It does not take a genius to work out that it is LFC that have had to patch up things yesterday and today and issued the statements that they have and not Suarez or Daglish that have had a change of heart. Daglish is the manager at fault NOT Ferguson.

In answer to your comments about Brack's point about racism I read it as he (Brack) was talking about the wider issues in football, - the fact that both Suarez and Terry have been involved in these does highlight that there is something wrong in the game, - but as I said above it is a point of discussion, - my view is that neither Suarez or Terry are racists, - but they are however grossly ignorant and have probably as a result of this used inappropriate language that has been taken as racist. Therefore they are both responsible for their actions.

Could I ask that we discuss this by arguing the argument itself and not the person?

My YouTube channel with plenty of my Joe's videos dating from 2009 inc his first Hammersmith Odeon ones:
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  • From: Amsterdam
  • Registered: 2007-10-06
  • Posts: 5,249

Re: The Football Topic

Ian916 wrote:

George the issue of Suarez being a racist or not is NOT the issue, -

It very much sounded like Brack was making a direct link in his post, hence my response. I take it you will agree that this entire 'incident' has been blown entirely, totally, monstrously, out of proportion? Jesus wept, one guy refuses to shake another player's hand under very specific and highly charged circumstances, and it's like WW3 has started. Everyody has seriously lost their sense of proportion here.


In answer to your comments about Brack's point about racism I read it as he (Brack) was talking about the wider issues in football, - the fact that both Suarez and Terry have been involved in these does highlight that there is something wrong in the game, - but as I said above it is a point of discussion, - my view is that neither Suarez or Terry are racists, - but they are however grossly ignorant and have probably as a result of this used inappropriate language that has been taken as racist. Therefore they are both responsible for their actions.

Could I ask that we discuss this by arguing the argument itself and not the person?

I entirely agree with your take on both Suarez and Terry above. I am not here as any kind of Suarez apologist! Although, I will admit to finding Terry even more distasteful than Suarez. As I said, I reacted to the suggestion that not shaking a hand was in some way showing racism.

As you know, I have no attachment to either of the clubs concerned. I thought that Dalgleish was embarrassingly disingenous in front of the camera last night, but I thought that Fergie was completely out of order suggesting that Liverpool should get rid of Suarez (reasons posted earlier). So, we'll have to disagree about Fergie.

Evra - since I have been quoted, I won't bother to go and edit my original post as well as the quotes, but will say this here -

After going and doing some research, I found that I had bought into a myth. I found the two incidents that I had at the back of my mind, and discovered that on neither occasion was a complaint made by Evra himself. I therefore unreservedly withdraw the accusation I made and apologize to Viper and all others for my ignorance of the facts.

Serious question - I also discovered that he is very unpopular in Senegal for having chosen to play for France. Is it racism when a black Senegalese calls Evra a "black monkey"?

We need to be very careful about getting deeply into this, it can lead to sticky wickets. Moreover, and I hope this won't be seen as too contentious, it is my understanding that the issue of racism in the game is more significant in the British game (carefully avoiding specifying any particular part of Britain!) and in certain parts of Europe. Which means that any discussion here is likely to mean nothing to our transatlantic sports friends.

I believe that the integration within US pro sports is such that the issue of any institutional racism no longer exists - although I'm sure there may always be an isolated incident. The same is true for Holland. I can't think of an instance of one player accusing another of racism. The vile things that are chanted from the stands by crowds is an entirely different discussion. As we all know, people can behave very differently in the heat of the moment in a stadium, than they ever would outside.

RIP Iron Man

Rock On and keep the Faith
  • From: Sweden
  • Registered: 2009-08-21
  • Posts: 263

Re: The Football Topic

I apologize for myself if i got a little carried away.

It's a really touchy subject and all got to be careful with words and letters.

For myself i think Evra was really out of order with his celebrating and about Fergie, we can agree that we disagree.

  • From: Sussex UK
  • Registered: 2009-07-12
  • Posts: 1,465

Re: The Football Topic

I thought Evra was recreating the Martin Keown daft arms in the air celebration move over Rudd van Nistelroy!!!...now there's something to be embarrassed about for the rest of your life!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17004667

Meanwhile, Sports Minister Hugh Robertson told Sky Sports News: "There is an issue that still needs to be tackled.

"It goes beyond racism - you hear vile chanting about managers and opposition players. I don't think that really has any place in modern society. If we don't accept it on the high street, I see no reason why we should accept it in a football crowd."

Changing the subject.....Did anybody watch the Africa Cup Final? - Ivory Coast were awful given the so called talent on the pitch... Well done to Zambia, - they really did deserve the win even if it was won on penalties. Ivory Coast had their chances, - wonder how many of their players come back very deflated and under-perform in the Premiership?

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  • From: Amsterdam
  • Registered: 2007-10-06
  • Posts: 5,249

Re: The Football Topic

Yes, I watched the final and was delighted with Zambia's win. We all know the sad history of their team.....

Congrats to our other Ian for finally getting rid of Mick Mac. I saw bits of the WBA game and Wolves really were a shambles.

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  • From: Norddeutschland
  • Registered: 2008-12-03
  • Posts: 1,458

Re: The Football Topic

Well although George and I share several tastes; Football club, music etc, but we do have differeing views on Harry 'Twitcher' Redknapp and also on Mick McCarthy. Both now in the recent news.

I know Ian has accused him of tactical naivety at times and one should defer to a regular watcher of any football team, but I am sorry to see him (Mick Mac)go.

Sadly, as we know, the players don't always share the managers committment and sometimes season long campaigns fighting at the foot of the table saps their motivation somewhat, whatever they are paid.

I read Benitez is being mentioned for the job, but I don't see it, or him as being the best choice. Curbishley is another name and frankly, in Wolve's position I couldn't think of anyone better. Take him on a deal 'til the end of the season and if it he pulls it off give him a better deal. Benitez will cost a fortune and want a fortune to spend. Wolves don't have that kind of money. Plus if they do go down, Curbishley is the man to get you back up again - pronto. Good organiser, good motivator and good with the players. WH should have never left him go...

Just on the subject of managers, spare a thought for Hertha Berlins Michael Skibbe. Brought in just days before the restart of the seaon after Markus Babbel resigned before Xmas after a falling out with the Managing Director he has been sacked after 35 days!

Yes they lost all 5 games under him, but they were losing since Babbel walked out anyway and are in freefall after having had a reasonable start for a newly promoted side. Their recent play has been littered with basic mistakes and in 35 days Skibbe had had no chance to properly get that sorted out yet.

Now don't get me wrong, Skibbe was the wrong choice in the first place, his Bundelsiga experience to date being that of taking Frankfurt down in 2010, but that didn't deter Berlin buying him out of his contract in Turkey and now paying off his new one after 35 days!

The Berlin management should be ashamed of themselves. They made a bad decision and have followed it with another bad one. They should sack themselves!

Funny old game football. What about Harry? He'll take the England job if it is offered I'm sure. He will leave Spurs in much better shape than he found them and ready for a new man to take them potentially on to where they could go. Should Harry take it? Well he is a patriot, a romantic and an optimist. 3 characteristics any England manager should have in abundance. He can deal with the press and willing to do so.

A shame for Spurs, but he has done the job they needed and maybe he will feel it is the right time to move on as his days there have been golden. If he stays I would be delighted for him and if he takes the job with England I'll support him. I've liked him and I always will. He'll be one of the first to call Mick Mac for sure...............

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012
  • From: Sussex UK
  • Registered: 2009-07-12
  • Posts: 1,465

Re: The Football Topic

hansamike wrote:

What about Harry? He'll take the England job if it is offered I'm sure. He will leave Spurs in much better shape than he found them and ready for a new man to take them potentially on to where they could go. Should Harry take it? Well he is a patriot, a romantic and an optimist. 3 characteristics any England manager should have in abundance. He can deal with the press and willing to do so.

A shame for Spurs, but he has done the job they needed and maybe he will feel it is the right time to move on as his days there have been golden. If he stays I would be delighted for him and if he takes the job with England I'll support him. I've liked him and I always will. He'll be one of the first to call Mick Mac for sure...............

I think this is actually quite a complex issue, and one that warrants a bit more debate about the ability of the FA.

No doubt that Levy will want an awful lot of money to release Harry from his contract at WHL, - and the FA have been manoeuvred into this being their only option by press and public. - It remind same of the scrabble to get Kegan a few years ago and we all know how that ended. - There is something very wrong in football if the English FA can pay out £3million to Spurs for the release of Harry, - when this money should be going into development and grass roots.

I think Harry should take it, but only on his terms. IN all honesty I am not sure that he is good enough which may sound surprising but I do not think that he has enough experience at the top level, - one season in CL is not enough and I do not think that he is defensive enough to play International tournament football. I agree with your point about Spurs being in a much better place, - it is a good enough place to attract a good manager, - the game on Saturday against Newcastle surprised me it was that good! - Some Spurs fans are dreaming of Mourinio but I am not sure about that, - not sure who else would be suitable.

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