Re: Licks

Agree with SlyStrat's comments regarding getting your own style and it reminded me of another key piece of information I gained a while back.  When discussing riffs/soloing etc., the talk is often about the notes...but nothing is mentioned about the timing of the riff in relation to the placement of the riff in the passage of music being played (this assumes the riff is played with the same tempo and phrasing regardless).

Does that sound obvious?  It might not be when you actually start experimenting and then realise WHY top blues guitarists play a certain riff at a certain point in a chord sequence.

As a very simple example, a four note riff over four bars of 4/4 time could be started at any beat in the sequence, right?  In the below example the riff is started at beat 3 in the first bar.

Chords:              Am      Dm       Em      Am
Beats in the bar: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
Solo riff:                  1 2 3 4

The learning exercise is to play the same riff at ALL 12 beat positions and listen/feel how the riff sounds different because of it's TIMING.  Try this exercise using the above chords over the 4 bars for a starter (the chord is played on the 1st beat of each bar) - simple stuff, but who knows it may help?!?  smile

Gibson LP '89 Custom * Gibson LP '04 Classic * Gibson JB LP Studio * Fender 50th Ann. Deluxe Strat * Gibson Explorer Pro * Epiphone Korina SG * Michael Kelly Patriot Premium * Ibanez 105NT Artcore Custom * Takamine acoustics * Fender Blues Deville 4x10" * Marshall DSL100 and DSL50 * Marshall 1960A * Laney LH55 * Bugera V55HD * Bugera 212VT * Marshall 1912 * Roland Cube 60

20 (edited by Jlowther 2011-11-16 17:34:31)

Re: Licks

Devan wrote:
Jlowther wrote:

Hi sorry for the late reply

Thanks for the advice! Yes I've recently been working on forcing myself out of the rut i was in and just let my fingers go free and hopefully not play the same licks over and over. The chordal idea is an interesting concept but the truth is, and i hate to admit it, is that i'm too lazy to memorize the chord progression then think of which scale i should be playing over each chord...i'll definitely give it a shot though and see how it works out!


The good thing is - you don't actually have to remember different scale for different chords.  You just need to know how to alter the existing scale you are playing to fit the chord better.

For instance, say you are playing a minor blues in 'A', and you are playing the A minor pentatonic, as is normal.  On the 'A' chord, the standard A minor pentatonic scale fits well - no problems.  Then, on the change to the 'D', you can still stay in this scale, but try adding the F# into the scale.  That's it - just one note extra.  LISTEN to the sound of that note - sounds good against the D chord. (not so much against the A or E chords).

Now try bending that F# to the G as part of your playing when on the D chord.  Sounds cool, no?

Similarly, when the band moves to the E chord, slot in perhaps a G# and sometimes bend that G# up to the A.

Simple as that.  Just add in one or two notes to a scale that you already know, and the sonic possibilities really open up.

As for memorising the chord patterns in a song, you don't really have to do that.  After practising some of these exercises for a while, your brain will become attuned to the changes automatically.  Takes a LOT of practice.  I am nowhere near that level yet.  I can usually pick the I-IV change, but am having problems with the I-V changes or other subtle turnaround changes.

OH i see! That explained everything perfectly and now I understand:) I was under the impression you had to play the A penta over an A chord then the D penta over a D chord etc...OK i'm definitely playing around with that asap.

Also, I've only just started using the relative major over a minor progression and vice versa. This has made me very interested because you can effectively play another whole scale along with the minor pentatonic

SlyStrat - that's actually an interesting way to look at learning new licks...the next time I learn a new lick I will force myself to just play it over and over and over instead of just a few times, hoping that i would remember it

Coolaxeman - again, thanks for the great advice! I'll listen to blues deluxe, for example, and listen for when joe fits in different riffs at different times and why he does that!

Thanks for such good advice everyone:)

EDIT: Also, does anyone have any tips on how to actually HEAR a lick you want to play (even if it's not a pre-learnt one)...i mean i can do this when just listening to a song but when i have the guitar and im occupied playing another lick i can't hear the next one. I've heard joe talk about taking gaps in between phrases - is this what he's talking about?

Re: Licks

Learning licks are great, but just like learning a scale or a new chord, you need to know how to apply it musically.  Better to learn 10 licks and a hundred ways to use them, than 100 licks but only be able to play them in one key, in one style, with one exact rhythm.  That gets very mechanical and doesn't teach you a whole lot about music.  It might be a good starting point, but how you apply licks you've learned, and turned them into your own thing is how you get your own voice.

EDIT: Also, does anyone have any tips on how to actually HEAR a lick you want to play (even if it's not a pre-learnt one)...i mean i can do this when just listening to a song but when i have the guitar and im occupied playing another lick i can't hear the next one. I've heard joe talk about taking gaps in between phrases - is this what he's talking about?

Practice it.  Put on a backing track - something simple and repetitive - then ONLY play something after you've heard it.  Doesn't matter if you nail it, just try to replicate it.  Do this frequently and spend some time with it.  It's a great exercise, but like anything, it takes some time to actually assimilate what you're learning.

Re: Licks

ZeyerGTR wrote:

  Better to learn 10 licks and a hundred ways to use them, than 100 licks but only be able to play them in one key, in one style, with one exact rhythm.

Perfect advice thanks man! You've made me realise this is one of my BIGGEST flaws - i hadn't thought about it before. So you basically mean take one simple lick...and think about how to phrase it differently and then practice all of the different variations you can think of?

23 (edited by SlyStrat 2011-11-16 18:42:03)

Re: Licks

I practice staying on one lick all the time. I'll jam until I get in a certain position that "says something" to me, then I'll work it back and forth, side to side, different bent notes, etc. The master blues players say you should be able to come up with a bunch of licks while staying in one position.
When I jam/improvise I gravitate to what I like and want to hear. I love when JB, Trower, and Gary Moore will do a slow phrase with bends or vibrato, then come ripping out of that phrase with some fast licks. Then pause and bend/vibrato again. I also love double stops that "groan", or bent double stops that "cry". So I add them into my improvising too. To me the TONE of what I'm playing is really what turns me on.
  Some old blues guitarist (BB King?) said he trys to make his solo's mimic two people having a conversation. If you think about it, thats really what the best guitarists do. When two people talk, there's lots of pauses, speed up and slow downs, accented words, louder and softer words. We're used to it and don't really notice it though.

Re: Licks

So you basically mean take one simple lick...and think about how to phrase it differently and then practice all of the different variations you can think of?

Yeah, pretty much - play it in all keys.  Play it faster and slower.  Try it over different backing tracks (SRV style, T-Bone Walker style, BB King Style, etc).  Play it with different attacks to the notes (aggressive, laid back, etc).  Try bending to and from notes in the lick, rather than hitting them straight on.  Nothing specific - just really explore the lick.

Sort of related, I like the exercise of picking 3-4 notes on the fretboard and improvising using ONLY those notes.  Work out all the variations you can find - change rhythm, change bends and vibrato - do everything you can to make those four notes sound different every time.  Limiting yourself to four notes and trying to make it sound interesting teaches you how to play the elements music beyond just the notes.

Steve Vai has a funny and related story here, as he talks about his audition with Zappa ("okay, now play it in 7:8 reggae"):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cplMM3d_Q

Re: Licks

One thing I've noticed is that I generally benefit more by approaching certain particular aspects by themselves for periods of time.
For instance, if I decide I could use some work on JB/EJ style fast articulate runs, then I do better by pretty much devoting all or most of my practicing to that concept for at least a few weeks focusing on:  1) what are the notes   2) how are said notes syncopated...and 3) what does my picking technique need to look like to play those fast runs cleanly with the appropriate syncopations 

Where I tend to mess myself up is when I get going for a short period of time on something, like say the above JB/EJ fast run technique example, and then all the sudden Ill get ADD and out of nowhere Im working on Robben Ford type phrasing.  Very different syncopation and feel to the hands.  Quite different, jazzier type approach to note choice as well.  The problem is, I wont realize at first that ive done any harm.  I'll seamlessly and mindlessly switch my focus over to the RF stuff and maybe I might even be doing a good job with it.  I might be thinking, "hey, im sounding pretty good at this", but then I'll get to my next gig and I notice myself getting tangled up when I try some JB/EJ stuff.  My syncopation will be too open/free, my tendency to use that particular hammer/pull thing RF does will be messing with my attempts at fast cleanly picked runs, and my note choice will be tending to a more jazzy free approach as opposed to more straight pentatonic ideas that work better for big fast runs.

What works better for me is to practice the example JB/EJ technique hard and consistently until I start to see majorly diminishing returns  in my ability to make the things I practice second nature.  All the while, Ill purposely focus on that style playing at my gigs and listen primarily to that style playing.
After I reach that point where Im not making big gains any longer, Ill switch to a different concept.  Ill also switch the music I listen to to highlight whatever concept I have switched to.  Ill practice hard and focus mostly on whatever the next concept/technique is at my gigs.  Then so on.  Its just a few main concepts I really focus hard on.  When I exhaust one i move on the next one and keep going back around.  Ideally by the time I get back to a technique I previously completely exhausted, my mind and fingers will be ready again to pick up and continue

For me its more a matter of how notes are syncopated from one style to the next than the different scales/note choices.  Im always trying to improve my ability to comfortably phrase lines with equal comfort regardless of the rhythm and timing and regardless of the picking pattern that will result from a given phrase.  (As opposed to generally defaulting to very physically comfortably syncopated phrases that lend themselves to very comfortable picking patterns)
So If I can pick a style or concept and stay with it for the long haul with out getting side tracked, I will get the most out of that period of practicing.   
The idea is to continually get more and more limber at all the types of playing I work on so that I can ultimately move in and out of any style without of missing a beat....no pun intended

Just an observation I made about my practice time

Re: Licks

Jlowther wrote:
ZeyerGTR wrote:

  Better to learn 10 licks and a hundred ways to use them, than 100 licks but only be able to play them in one key, in one style, with one exact rhythm.

Perfect advice thanks man! You've made me realise this is one of my BIGGEST flaws - i hadn't thought about it before. So you basically mean take one simple lick...and think about how to phrase it differently and then practice all of the different variations you can think of?

http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-015-BluesUseLicks.php

Have a look at this, he gives some insight into how he looks at using licks. Nice little video and regardless of your level the concept is true.

http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-000-Blues.php

This is the whole series for his Blues stuff, for guys looking to advance there blues, there looks to be some new lessons coming into the rhthym side that might give some inspiration. The Blues series is nice, and might give you some new ideas for some licks. Definately the coolest guitar site out there!!!

tewker