1 Topic by Jlowther (edited by Jlowther 2011-11-02 17:36:42)

  • From: Cambridge
  • Registered: 2011-01-15
  • Posts: 912

Topic: Licks

Hi:)

I was just thinking about licks and learning new ones and I was wondering what everyone's method of approaching a new lick and incorporating into a song is? I often practice a lick a few times then put it into a blues song and think i HOPE i remember it for the rest of my guitar life...but i don't:(

Is it literally just practicing one lick over and over until you can just call upon it in the middle of a song? and then building up your library? I see Joe playing licks today that he was playing during his bloodline days

Also, what's everyone's method of improvisation? Specifically, any tips on trying to HEAR what lick you want to play next as I often end up playing similar licks, or one that just gets stuck in my head find myself repeating it several times. Also, might be worth mentioning that i definitely have the ability to hear where i would want my solo to go when i don't have the guitar in my hands and im just listening to the solo, but when i have the guitar and im playing i just go back to my normal licks! Lastly, i also have the ability to work out a lick by just listening to it a few times and then a few trial and errors

Thanks and i hope you understand:)

Jonny L

Videos of my playing: http://www.youtube.com/user/JonnyLowtherMusic
  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
  • Posts: 5,807

Re: Licks

great thread!

I've found there to be a HUGE gap between scale patterns and actual improv myself  hmm

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool
  • From: Ridgeland, MS
  • Registered: 2009-08-12
  • Posts: 1,248

Re: Licks

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

I've found there to be a HUGE gap between scale patterns and actual improv myself  hmm

Agree. As far as "going back to normal licks", I think that happens because every time you play you "go back to normal licks." In other words you're "practicing" the same thing over and over again (which is the danger of only noodling when you practice. In order to get out of those ruts you need to spend part of your playing time (not all) in structured practice doing things that you normally don't do or don't know how to do. Over time those new elements will creep into your noodling and soon after that you will be guest hosted by Joe at the RAH. OK, I made that last part up. Good luck.   cool

  • From: Cambridge
  • Registered: 2011-01-15
  • Posts: 912

Re: Licks

wharris wrote:
NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

I've found there to be a HUGE gap between scale patterns and actual improv myself  hmm

Agree. As far as "going back to normal licks", I think that happens because every time you play you "go back to normal licks." In other words you're "practicing" the same thing over and over again (which is the danger of only noodling when you practice. In order to get out of those ruts you need to spend part of your playing time (not all) in structured practice doing things that you normally don't do or don't know how to do. Over time those new elements will creep into your noodling and soon after that you will be guest hosted by Joe at the RAH. OK, I made that last part up. Good luck.   cool

haha that's a good way to look at it! Guest hosted by Joe...i wish!;)

Jonny L

Videos of my playing: http://www.youtube.com/user/JonnyLowtherMusic
  • Devan
  • Devan
  • BONAMETAL
  • Offline
  • From: Darwin, Australia
  • Registered: 2010-04-13
  • Posts: 1,304

Re: Licks

I find the best way is to (a) find a lick that I really like in the first place and (b) practice the hell out of it until it becomes second nature.  It's a bit like being in a martial arts dojo where you practice the same kick or punch 1000 times over and over again, so that when it comes time to use it in a crisis situation, you do it without even thinking.

Pretty much the same with licks - if you have a series of them down pat in your muscle memory, then you will easily be able to slot them in during a performance.

However...  smile

I've been working with my guitar teacher lately to break out of that 'lick' mentality.  Licks are great as fillers or as a stop gap from time to time whilst jamming etc., but at the end of the day, a great solo has to have some sense of musicality behind it.  It has to take the listener somewhere.

With that in mind, a series of licks squashed together does not a good solo make.

My teacher has been working with me to get the SOUNDS of the notes in the scale in my head, so that I will instinctively know which sounds will work at what point.

For instance, if you are playing the Blues in 'A', take a look at all the notes in the 'A' major scale for starters.  You will find that the 1st (root), 3rd and 5th notes of the scale sit really nicely when you play them against the 'A' chord.  The 2nd and 4th however, sound odd, and almost force you to move to the next note to resolve them - which can be a good tension building device in a solo!  The 6th sounds really cool every now and then, especially when you slide back down to the 5th etc.

All good, until your band changes to the 'D' chord as part of the song - now the rules change again, and you need to know which notes of the scale fit well with THAT chord...

Two things this has brought to me - a MUCH MORE thorough familiarisation with the fret board, and also that my solos before were really lacking real musical direction.  I was boring MYSELF with my repertoire, let alone my audience.

That is why I enjoy Joe's guitar playing - sure he has some stock licks that he throws in from time to time, but overall, when he plays a solo, he is really telling a story...  cool

JBLP Gold Top #129 - redubbed "#1 in Oz"
  • From: Ridgeland, MS
  • Registered: 2009-08-12
  • Posts: 1,248

Re: Licks

Agree, Devan. True Fire has a good lesson DVD entitled "Sweet Notes" that addresses that. The whole idea is chord-tone soloing.

  • From: Edwardsville, IL
  • Registered: 2010-05-17
  • Posts: 656

Re: Licks

I've been having the same problem OP...."Stuck in a rut" if you will...

What I have been doing is trying to break out of my comfort zone and focus on other types of music I normally don't listen to or play in hopes of finding a new path or at least freshen up my playing...Also change the way you're playing...If you use a lot of distortion play clean or vise versa...Also play without a pick for a couple of days or something...Just try something different. Also, I've found looking in tab books to be refreshing too...I don't focus on learning the songs, but just picking out a part of the music and focusing on that.

I don't know food for thought.

my guitar playing. http://www.youtube.com/user/09ncowan?feature=mhee
  • Devan
  • Devan
  • BONAMETAL
  • Offline
  • From: Darwin, Australia
  • Registered: 2010-04-13
  • Posts: 1,304

Re: Licks

wharris wrote:

Agree, Devan. True Fire has a good lesson DVD entitled "Sweet Notes" that addresses that. The whole idea is chord-tone soloing.

Yes!  I've got the 'Sweet Notes' training series from TrueFire by Robbie Calvo.  Brilliant stuff! 

If it is Licks you want too, I highly recommend the '50 Licks' series of videos that they have got.

In fact, my guitar teacher is actually Jeff McErlain, who does a lot of Truefire videos.  Great guy, killer player.  I've learned more in 20 lessons with him than the past 20 years of self learning...  cool

JBLP Gold Top #129 - redubbed "#1 in Oz"
  • From: Southampton, UK
  • Registered: 2011-09-06
  • Posts: 231

Re: Licks

Great thread!  I stopped playing for about 15 years as (to put it simply) I got stuck in a rut.  How I wish I'd carried on because now I'm doing a whole load of catch-up.  I'm 52 and the good news is - you CAN teach an old dog new tricks!

There's lot's to talk about on this subject, but for me there has been some key tips that in the past helped my playing 'move on' even though I have a poor understanding of music theory.

a. Learn a new riff in whatever key.  Then play that riff in different places over the fretboard in the same key until it becomes 2nd nature.  Then play it in another key and then over the fret board.  This takes time and patience, but it is ultimately rewarding for hopefully obvious reasons.  IMPORTANT!  Don't move onto another new riff until you've mastered the 1st one - be disciplined!

b. Blues is played in minor keys right?  Learn the major keys!  The easiest way to start to do this is to realise how to utilise minor 'boxes' (3rds).  For example, many country-blues songs are played in G major with a chord sequence of G - C - D.  Try playing a blues pentatonic solo in E minor at the 12th fret over that chord sequence and then find those same notes all over the fretboard.  Then try doing the same thing with other major chord sequences.  It's amazing how this can assist with improvisation.

c. When noodling licks, guitarists tend to just rip into a bunch of notes without taking a breath.  My advice is this - use whatever technology is at your disposal to set a simple 12-bar blues chord sequence playing - a backing track - (I use a Line 6 JM4 looper).  Now - before playing anything, try to hear in your head the lick you want to play - THEN try to play it.  This does 2 things - it makes you pause before playing and it gets your ear trained.  These two things are essential ground-work tools when it comes to improvisation and better playing in general.

d. Don't be afraid of taking risks, especially when playing live, but utilise 'the pause' to think about what you're about to do.

These exercises are aimed at getting a better understanding of what licks sound best in a given situation.  Hope that's not teaching y'all to suck eggs!  Incidentally, when I play with my band, at least 80% of the solo's played by myself, the keys player and the sax player are all improvised and all the tunes we play are covers.  I think it keeps us and our audiences interested!

Best - Dave

Gibson LP '89 Custom * Gibson LP '04 Classic * Gibson JB LP Studio * Fender 50th Ann. Deluxe Strat * Gibson Explorer Pro * Epiphone Korina SG * Michael Kelly Patriot Premium * Ibanez 105NT Artcore Custom * Takamine acoustics * Fender Blues Deville 4x10" * Marshall DSL100 and DSL50 * Marshall 1960A * Laney LH55 * Bugera V55HD * Bugera 212VT * Marshall 1912 * Roland Cube 60

Coolaxeman's Website

  • From: Cambridge
  • Registered: 2011-01-15
  • Posts: 912

Re: Licks

Thanks so much for all the great replies! I have read and took in everything everyone has said. I'm definitely going to spend a few weeks playing around with the major scale and see where that leads me...

Jonny L

Videos of my playing: http://www.youtube.com/user/JonnyLowtherMusic

11 Reply by ACF

  • ACF
  • ACF
  • Platinum
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2011-01-07
  • Posts: 140

Re: Licks

This is great stuff. Some very good advice here. I am kind of in a noodling rut myself so this is great timing.

Anthony

12 Reply by Devan (edited by Devan 2011-11-04 07:34:30)

  • Devan
  • Devan
  • BONAMETAL
  • Offline
  • From: Darwin, Australia
  • Registered: 2010-04-13
  • Posts: 1,304

Re: Licks

+1-- to everything Coolaxeman said above - This is exactly the sorts of things my teacher is working with me...

Something simple like the MAJOR pentatonic scale - WOW, what an eye opener when my teacher explained about that...20+ years of being stuck in the minor pentatonic 'box' and BAM, a whole new world opens up.  Then he showed me how to MIX major and minor together... Mind = Blown!

It's hard to believe that such simple things like this can make a massive difference to your playing.

Another trick that I am working on this week - Get a looper or record a loop in Garageband with just a ONE chord groove.  Just ONE chord.  Then against that backing, play each note of the major scale of that note, and stop and FEEL each note.  Then do the same with the minor scale.  If you get adventurous, try the Mixolydian scale... Get the SOUNDS of these notes into your head, rather than the positions on the fretboard.

Once comfortable with finding these notes, run through them by BENDING up to the next note in the scale.  So, play the 1, then bend up to the 2, then play the 2 and bend to the 3 etc. etc.  The bending activity will even more finely tune your ears to the sounds of the notes.  Before long, you won't be thinking about box shapes on the fretboard, your fingers will move to the sound of the notes.  And that was a huge leap for me.

Still not perfect - at gigs I still fall back to the safety of 'the box', but my guitar teacher tells me that "At a gig, you always play at the level you were 6 months ago"...so true!  big_smile

JBLP Gold Top #129 - redubbed "#1 in Oz"
  • From: Cambridge
  • Registered: 2011-01-15
  • Posts: 912

Re: Licks

Devan wrote:

+1-- to everything Coolaxeman said above - This is exactly the sorts of things my teacher is working with me...

Something simple like the MAJOR pentatonic scale - WOW, what an eye opener when my teacher explained about that...20+ years of being stuck in the minor pentatonic 'box' and BAM, a whole new world opens up.  Then he showed me how to MIX major and minor together... Mind = Blown!

It's hard to believe that such simple things like this can make a massive difference to your playing.

Another trick that I am working on this week - Get a looper or record a loop in Garageband with just a ONE chord groove.  Just ONE chord.  Then against that backing, play each note of the major scale of that note, and stop and FEEL each note.  Then do the same with the minor scale.  If you get adventurous, try the Mixolydian scale... Get the SOUNDS of these notes into your head, rather than the positions on the fretboard.

Once comfortable with finding these notes, run through them by BENDING up to the next note in the scale.  So, play the 1, then bend up to the 2, then play the 2 and bend to the 3 etc. etc.  The bending activity will even more finely tune your ears to the sounds of the notes.  Before long, you won't be thinking about box shapes on the fretboard, your fingers will move to the sound of the notes.  And that was a huge leap for me.

Still not perfect - at gigs I still fall back to the safety of 'the box', but my guitar teacher tells me that "At a gig, you always play at the level you were 6 months ago"...so true!  big_smile

Thanks Devan! I'll give that little exercise a shot while learning the major pentatonics!! I've never fully understood modes, I know it's something to do with the starting note of the major scale but not too sure..

Jonny L

Videos of my playing: http://www.youtube.com/user/JonnyLowtherMusic
  • Registered: 2008-06-13
  • Posts: 137

Re: Licks

I have a bunch of licks that just dominate my playing, but you just have to try and stop yourself, when practicing I just try to go places I havent before, after watching Joe's playing, it got me thinking about moving from position to position of a scale, not just up and down the box shapes, try to think laterally more. Then I play a lot with trial and error, would love to get more into which notes are having which effect.

One other way I have been trying to change things up, and is something I have been working on with a teacher/friend I jam with. Playing around the chords, and for starters we just took a bit of the Progression from Axis bold as love, then whatever chord I am on thats what scale I am looking for to put in some licks, ala Hendrix I guess, nice Chordal ideas, but they can really flesh out your solo if you can get them in as well. So Progression was A - E - Fm - D. On the A I was think A Major Pent, the E was E Major Pent, Fm was the F Minor Pent, D was D Major Pent.  am just working with pentantonics on this now to learn, then i will start to look at other avenues, we talked about the use of the Mixolydian mode in a major Blues/Rock context, and also Dorian in a minor context.

To further what we were looking at we then took the chord progression, and looked at playing some Triads on the 3 thin strings, and coming up with some licks based around those triads and scales choices. That throws out a few different ideas, and is definately taking you away from too much scalar sounding single note lines.

All this is pushing me towards sitting down and hammering the CAGED system into my head, as I am starting to see the links between it all, need to fill in the gaps smile

tewker

  • From: Cambridge
  • Registered: 2011-01-15
  • Posts: 912

Re: Licks

tewker wrote:

I have a bunch of licks that just dominate my playing, but you just have to try and stop yourself, when practicing I just try to go places I havent before, after watching Joe's playing, it got me thinking about moving from position to position of a scale, not just up and down the box shapes, try to think laterally more. Then I play a lot with trial and error, would love to get more into which notes are having which effect.

One other way I have been trying to change things up, and is something I have been working on with a teacher/friend I jam with. Playing around the chords, and for starters we just took a bit of the Progression from Axis bold as love, then whatever chord I am on thats what scale I am looking for to put in some licks, ala Hendrix I guess, nice Chordal ideas, but they can really flesh out your solo if you can get them in as well. So Progression was A - E - Fm - D. On the A I was think A Major Pent, the E was E Major Pent, Fm was the F Minor Pent, D was D Major Pent.  am just working with pentantonics on this now to learn, then i will start to look at other avenues, we talked about the use of the Mixolydian mode in a major Blues/Rock context, and also Dorian in a minor context.

To further what we were looking at we then took the chord progression, and looked at playing some Triads on the 3 thin strings, and coming up with some licks based around those triads and scales choices. That throws out a few different ideas, and is definately taking you away from too much scalar sounding single note lines.

All this is pushing me towards sitting down and hammering the CAGED system into my head, as I am starting to see the links between it all, need to fill in the gaps smile

tewker

Hi sorry for the late reply

Thanks for the advice! Yes I've recently been working on forcing myself out of the rut i was in and just let my fingers go free and hopefully not play the same licks over and over. The chordal idea is an interesting concept but the truth is, and i hate to admit it, is that i'm too lazy to memorize the chord progression then think of which scale i should be playing over each chord...i'll definitely give it a shot though and see how it works out!

Jonny L

Videos of my playing: http://www.youtube.com/user/JonnyLowtherMusic
  • Devan
  • Devan
  • BONAMETAL
  • Offline
  • From: Darwin, Australia
  • Registered: 2010-04-13
  • Posts: 1,304

Re: Licks

Jlowther wrote:

Hi sorry for the late reply

Thanks for the advice! Yes I've recently been working on forcing myself out of the rut i was in and just let my fingers go free and hopefully not play the same licks over and over. The chordal idea is an interesting concept but the truth is, and i hate to admit it, is that i'm too lazy to memorize the chord progression then think of which scale i should be playing over each chord...i'll definitely give it a shot though and see how it works out!


The good thing is - you don't actually have to remember different scale for different chords.  You just need to know how to alter the existing scale you are playing to fit the chord better.

For instance, say you are playing a minor blues in 'A', and you are playing the A minor pentatonic, as is normal.  On the 'A' chord, the standard A minor pentatonic scale fits well - no problems.  Then, on the change to the 'D', you can still stay in this scale, but try adding the F# into the scale.  That's it - just one note extra.  LISTEN to the sound of that note - sounds good against the D chord. (not so much against the A or E chords).

Now try bending that F# to the G as part of your playing when on the D chord.  Sounds cool, no?

Similarly, when the band moves to the E chord, slot in perhaps a G# and sometimes bend that G# up to the A.

Simple as that.  Just add in one or two notes to a scale that you already know, and the sonic possibilities really open up.

As for memorising the chord patterns in a song, you don't really have to do that.  After practising some of these exercises for a while, your brain will become attuned to the changes automatically.  Takes a LOT of practice.  I am nowhere near that level yet.  I can usually pick the I-IV change, but am having problems with the I-V changes or other subtle turnaround changes.

JBLP Gold Top #129 - redubbed "#1 in Oz"
  • From: Ridgeland, MS
  • Registered: 2009-08-12
  • Posts: 1,248

Re: Licks

Nice post, Devan.

18 Reply by SlyStrat (edited by SlyStrat 2011-11-16 09:17:45)

  • Registered: 2011-02-25
  • Posts: 127

Re: Licks

I look at learning licks like I'm learning a new language. I learn a some new words(lick) on the guitar, then practice over and over until I don't have to think about them anymore. Then those "words" become sentences to say on my guitar. Its a slow process.
My main way to learn and break out of a rut is jamming along to a cd. My favorite's right now are Gary Moore and Cream live. But that changes. Sometimes its Robin Trower, Hendrix, Page, Luther Allison, or Joe Bonamassa. And there's a ton more. They are my teachers. In a rut? I'll put on a different cd.
I'm not real good at playing by ear and nailing licks note for note. But in a way I think thats good. I'm developing my own style, not just playing like someone else. As I jam along to the songs I'll let them lead me into the different area's of the neck and styles of playing. I'll pick up a new lick then play it a few times as the song continues. This always leads me into my own improvising and I'll pause the cd and just jam with the song in my head. Lots of times I get into "the zone" and let my fingers do the walking. In this state I'll play new licks I've never done before. I'll get a "high" from that, like a runners high. This type of learning really helps me get into improvising my own stuff. As a guitar player thats what I want to do and enjoy the most.
I don't know anything about major/minor scales. Can't read music. I don't know any songs note for note, and can't play a song all the way through. I'm lame in that way.
But I can improvise and jam pretty good.