Topic: intonation madness

hey guys....looking for some help from some hopeful guitar experts out there....

as you know from one of my other threads, i just bought a les paul traditional pro about a week ago and I have been loving it.

however, i have been tweaking myself dang near crazy working on setting the intonation. i have been playing almost 25 years...i have a pretty good ear....i own over 10 guitars that are all pretty nice instruments and i do all of my own setup work and i rarely have any issues with the intonation on my guitars.  however, this is the first les paul I have ever owned and I'm just curious if some of you other LP owners out there could help me out.

i have been going thru the same process with this les paul as I do all of my guitars....i use a korg rack tuner and i make sure i have good fresh strings....properly stretched. i then make sure that the harmonic on the 12 fret is in tune and then i fret the note at the 12th fret and if that note is sharp i move the saddle back towards the bridge and vice versa if the fretted note is flat.  i also will occasionally just check it buy making sure the open string is in tune and then check the fretted note on the 12th fret against it.

i then recheck and it will show that it is almost perfect and then I start playing and one of two things is happening....1) chords up the neck in the higher registers sound pretty good and then lower open chords will be terrible or 2) i get it tweaked where the lower open chords sound pretty good and then the upper bar chords or inversions on up the neck sound terrible......i have even tweaked it where they all sound sort of decent but just not quite right and many times chords above the 12th fret are just terrible.

i'm at a loss and could use some advice.....the action is OK, i use fresh d'addario strings...i prefer 9's but thought that might be my problem and switched back to the 10's which is what comes on this thing out of the store and there was no change....i'm using a good tuner and following what I consider to the be the correct procedures but I am not getting the results I feel like I should. i understand that intonation on a guitar due to the western tempered scale is a compromise but this is not as good as my other axes and it's killing me.

any ideas or help you could give would be highly appreciated.

Re: intonation madness

I heard this is what you get...
http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

3 (edited by Sjmckean 2011-01-15 23:06:19)

Re: intonation madness

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

I heard this is what you get...
http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm

Is this similar to the Earvana nut?  Those are supposed to be great.

2011 Gibson Joe Bonamassa Les Paul Studio Gold Top, 2010 Epi Joe Bonamassa Les Paul Gold Top, 2010 Epi Les Paul Standard '57 Gold Top, 2010 Epi Les Paul Standard Honey Burst (autographed by Joe Bonamassa), 2006 Epi Les Paul Classic Quilt top, 2004 Eric Clapton Strat, 1989 First wife

Re: intonation madness

The guitar's inherent quality is that it's always a little out of tune somewhere.  The Buzz Fieten Tuning System is a big improvement.

Sometimes if your action is too high, the truss rod a little off, the frets are to high (large) and you're pressing really hard will all contribute to the guitar being out of tune when played. Check all these things.  Maybe just a little tweak is all you need.

Re: intonation madness

how is the relief on the neck? this can be a big factor at times.  . . if you cange it via the truss rod. . . you will have to re-intonate as well. . .
how is the nut height?  . . . sometimes too high can cause things played in the first frets to be too sharp. . . . on otherwise intonated strings. . .
it sounds like you have a lot of experience with this. . .  probably much more than me. . .

. . . if it's 'above' you. . . take it to someone who you trust. . .

6 (edited by ZeyerGTR 2011-01-18 18:32:50)

Re: intonation madness

i then recheck and it will show that it is almost perfect and then I start playing and one of two things is happening...

When you fret at 12 and check intonation, are you pressing as hard as you do when you play?  Harder?  If you fret a lot harder when playing than when doing your setup you might be pulling it sharp (or vice versa).  If not then maybe some Big Bends Nut Sauce is in order? Sounds like it's a bigger issue than that, but definitely worth a shot.

7 (edited by DAN 2011-01-19 09:55:09)

Re: intonation madness

You stated, "I make sure the harmonic at the 12th fret is in tune," which is not the  important first step . The first step is making sure the open string is in tune. Then plunk the 12th fret harmonic and remember it's reading on the tuner, then fret/play the note at the 12th fret ,and  check your new tuner reading for the difference between the two readings. It is from here you make your saddle adjustment....."Flat forward, sharp back," I believe is how I remember it.
The adjustment is the difference between the harmonic and fretted note at the 12th. As you know after a saddle adjustment, retune the open string again, and start the process over.
I use a Boss tuner with the needle cause I can see it flutter, and can tell how much incremental saddle adjustment to make. The digital flow type tuner isnt sensitive enough.
One thing is to check the tuner immediately the instant you pluck a string. Letting a string ring out eventually throws the tuner into displaying note degrading overtones.
I respect your efforts to seek this help. Back in the day when I was 17, I struggled with your same problem, until I learned about intonation.
The only other idea here, may be pup height. Are the magnets pulling to hard on the string, messing with it's normal eliptical vibration? Or are the pups to low?
Other idea....do the strings run straight up the neck? Is the neck off that way?
Only have 3 wraps of string around the tuning posts, no more, or else you get loosening. As mentioned above, check the nut for pinch.
Obviously, an intonated guitar starts with the pegs, down to the stud. Good luck, you seem to be more experienced than me, & i'm just trouble shootin'.Thanks >>DAN

79' Epiphone Genesis Custom, 89' pre-reissue Les Paul Standard, 90'Strat Plus,
02' Tele (ash), 91' Martin HD-28, Epi A-12 acoustic, Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12

Re: intonation madness

thanks everyone for the help and suggestions....i'm still wrestling a bit with things on this guitar but it does seem to be doing better.  it's just been a baffling situation to me with no obvious "ah ha....that was the issue" kind of moment happening......

i'm convinced that i have an issue with the nut as all other areas such as the neck, frets, pickup height, action, string posts etc....all seem to check out as acceptable.....i am going to continue to slightly work on the nut some and see if I can get everything to fall in place and stay that way for a few days....lol

Re: intonation madness

That's cool. My point above is to not try to initially tune using the harmonic. Go by the difference between the harmonic and fretted 12th fret note.....nuf said.
Sometimes, these things just "play themselves out," like a fret buzzing all of a sudden....could be due to humidity change....give it time. ?
I saw in your photos that the stud is not screwed hard and fast down to the top of the body. That's fine. Just make sure that the string angle from the stud to the bridge isnt so steep, that the string leaving the stud is touching/resting on the back edge of the bridge before it rests in the saddle. (I found this out not to long ago on mine!)First point of contact, obviously, should be the saddle only...... getting too picky perhaps, but just throwing that out since it's a new guitar.Run a piece of dental floss, or thread, under the string at this point to make sure the string isnt touching the back edge of the bridge.
Factory set ups are not personalized. I just hope it all works for you. I think the Traditional Pro's are a good price, and it is a L Paul! My 89' LP cost $1,200.00
Only other suggestion would be to adjust one thing at a time. My strat input started crackling, so just tightening the nut seemed to solve the "problem," we'll see. >> DAN

79' Epiphone Genesis Custom, 89' pre-reissue Les Paul Standard, 90'Strat Plus,
02' Tele (ash), 91' Martin HD-28, Epi A-12 acoustic, Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12

Re: intonation madness

When this happened to me on my Les Paul copy (a History), my guitar-tech buddy crowned the frets for me. If the center part of the "peak" of the fret is not in the middle of the fret, it can make the intonation a bit wonky. I.e., if the "peak" is at the front or back of the fret, it effectively changes the position of the fret on the fretboard .... it's only a short distance, but the ear can hear the difference when the note is fretted.

just a thought....

kev

You never know what's going to happen.....

Re: intonation madness

Take a look at some of the guitars here, to see how some makers have tried to solve the general intonation challenge: http://www.microtonalguitar.com/

You never know what's going to happen.....

12

Re: intonation madness

Possible..... If chords sound off, then it could be pups being to high.
If you like the string height right now, dont mess with the truss rod. Work from the posts down to the bridge. Try pencil lead or Keysor string lube/cleaner, or glycerin on the nut slots. Dont use gooey lubes on wound strings cause that dulls their sound. Nut Sauce is too expensive to buy and experiment with at this stage. Perhaps using the Fast Fret wand a little more aggresive at the nut and try to squish some juice onto the strings in the nut may help......I would think that if there was a nut problem, you would hear the pinging sound...as your dead give away.
Just some ideas. >> DAN

79' Epiphone Genesis Custom, 89' pre-reissue Les Paul Standard, 90'Strat Plus,
02' Tele (ash), 91' Martin HD-28, Epi A-12 acoustic, Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12