Topic: Plain Top vs Flame Top

Hey Everyone....

First of all...Happy New Year to ALL!!!

I have a few questions for you....

I am looking at a Flame Top '58 Les Paul and I wanted to know a couple of things....Can you guys give me your opinions on the statements I am posting below?  Is there really a difference?

This came from one of my favorite guitar stores to deal with......

Now, there really is a difference between 58s and 59s/60s. You can go all the way back to early master builders that built the fine stringed instruments like the Stradivarius - they all used Flamed Maple wood for it's tonal characteristics. There is no doubt in my mind, that there is a difference in the tone and overall performance between a Plain Top and a Flame Top. The alternating density in the grain of a Flame top produces increased reflectiveness and a variance in tone that creates additional texture not present in the consistency of a Plain Top. Anyway, for some unknown reason, Gibson has chosen to build a few Flame Top 58s which are really no different in performance and tone to a '59 or '60 and at a much lower price. The necks are a bit fatter and #1609 measures .909 at the 1st and .998 at the 12th. So, not huge but a little fatter than most 59s. I remember your Bourbon which was an awesome '58! However, she is a Plain Top and she does weigh in at 9 lbs 4 ozs. #1609 weighs in at 8 lbs 11.5 ozs which makes this wood less dense allowing for increased resonance, sustain, projection, presence and range. So although your Bourbon is an awesome guitar, you can expect #1609 to out perform her.


Love to hear all of your opinions....Joe, your's as well....


Thanks and Cheers,

Barry

2009 Gibson Les Paul 1958 VOS (with black plastic)
2008 Gibson Les Paul Traditional Goldtop (with the cream plastic from the 58RI)
> Marshall Bluesbreaker 2 pedal >Boss sd-1> DD3 > Vox Ac15cc1

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

The best way to judge the "wood" on a guitar is to play it acoustically.  Everything else is just theory, and, even if generally true, there are/will be many exceptions.

There are no hard and fast rules.

3 (edited by Jimi_lp 2011-01-11 10:30:13)

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

Load of nonsense.
If you're on the les paul forums you'll see the common argument of the R8s being almost exactly the same as the R9s, with a very different price tag. The only difference now is the neck thickness and the flame top.
Most R8s are plain now. I've never seen anyone on those forums mention a flame top being tonally better than a plain top.
Just go for a plain top if you want to save your pennies and you're not bothered about the visual difference.

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

I love plain top les pauls dunno if there'd be a huge notable dif. I would of thought instrument makers like all fine carpenters would of picked flamed pieces on the looks as well as tonals. Let's be honest gibson makes something to sell the majority will go for looks the minority will pick based on tone, but that dif in tone can happen to a piece cut from the same tree. It looks more to me like justification of costs.

Personally I believe properly cured wood will sound the best, Yairi guitars have good tone with good wood stocks. I think that is key to older instruments like the stradivarius violins etc

My penny worth

Jtb

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

By the guitar that sounds and feels the best to you. I got a flame top because I liked how it looked, felt and played but I would of got a Plain top if I found one I like just as much.

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

I think who ever came up with that statment might have heard the sounds with their eyes and not their ears.  Even if it was true that a flame top was less dense then a plain top (which I don't believe) it wouldn't be that big of a difference.  They get maple from the same place tree's.  There is nothing more magical then the other, but the more dried out it is makes a big difference.  How do they get flame tops and quilt tops?  Part of it is luck of the draw, but the biggest thing is they cut it in a special way that gets that look.  Plain tops get the most planks out of the tree, while flame tops require a special cut that waists much more of the tree.  In other words a plain top is cut straight up and down the tree like a 90 degree angle, Figured tops are cut at more of a 45 degree cut which gives you less planks of wood to work with but produce those figures that cost so much more.  So really the reason they cost more is because you waist more to get it.  Also Maple necks that are quarter sawn necks they waist more wood as well, but they are the strongest necks you'll ever find, and even though I dont think they make a difference in tone I do think they make a difference in performance over a period of time.  They don't warp as easy and need less adjustment over time.  Great topic!

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

thanks everyone...I think I will stick with my plain top Bourbon 58

2009 Gibson Les Paul 1958 VOS (with black plastic)
2008 Gibson Les Paul Traditional Goldtop (with the cream plastic from the 58RI)
> Marshall Bluesbreaker 2 pedal >Boss sd-1> DD3 > Vox Ac15cc1

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

I heard flame tops came about because it was cast away wood from the furniture industry. The grains were to individualistic, and it the furniture looked like the wood didn't match.

way too many factors go into if wood sounds good. I don't know where to start. But if you got it? you got it!

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

I've never heard the furniture theory, but it is kind of interesting. However, I don't believe it is accurate based on many interviews with old Gibson employees I have read.

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

I have never heard the furniture theory ever and am interested to find out more.  I will report back with more info hopefully.  I think the first comment sums it all up guys.  You must play the guitar acoustically and figure out if you dig the sound.  Some will sound low and bassy and others will sound thin and trebly.  Great sound is heard by an individual and not produced by a guitar.  There are people out there with a taste for all sorts of different tones.  R8s and R9s are both killer guitars.  As far as looks go it is up to you.  If a flame top speaks to you visually to the point that it improves your confidence while playing then being heard on a plain top that does not particularly inspire you could be mistaken as a lack of tone.  Warren Haynes often plays a plaintop and it inarguably sound unbelievable.  Also make sure you have great electronics and pups.  IMO a Gibson LP standard with a pair of Sheptone Tributes, 50's wiring, sprague paper in oil caps, and super nice 500K pots will beat an R9 9 times out of 10with....I hope I didn't start s*#t with that last comment. tongue

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

JohnTB wrote:

I love plain top les pauls dunno if there'd be a huge notable dif. I would of thought instrument makers like all fine carpenters would of picked flamed pieces on the looks as well as tonals. Let's be honest gibson makes something to sell the majority will go for looks the minority will pick based on tone, but that dif in tone can happen to a piece cut from the same tree. It looks more to me like justification of costs.

Personally I believe properly cured wood will sound the best, Yairi guitars have good tone with good wood stocks. I think that is key to older instruments like the stradivarius violins etc

My penny worth

Jtb

I agree with this.  Just look at the LP Supremes.  It's a Studio with a fancy top and inlay.  People buy them because they are purdy.  I have a flame top PRS and I would argue my plain top LP is every bit as resonant.

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

LesPaul4 wrote:

thanks everyone...I think I will stick with my plain top Bourbon 58


for shure no bad choice...  smile   ...if you like it stick with it...  big_smile

one should not forget that in most cases where a figured top (R9 & R0) is used also very light weight Mahagony is the used for the body... which might have more effect on the tone of an instrument than the flames and figures... it just happened to occure that tonal differencies is credited to the flamed Maple but rather is due to the Mahagony...?  Just my theory... I don't know  whether this is right...

I have a darkburst R6 and a darkburst flamed R9... the R9 has more treble than the R9 while the R9 is more "honky" than the R6... don't know how to descrube this better... hope you get what I mean...  wink

Greetings
PIT...  cool

13 (edited by NPB_EST.1979 2011-01-13 09:23:20)

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

wharris wrote:

I've never heard the furniture theory, but it is kind of interesting. However, I don't believe it is accurate based on many interviews with old Gibson employees I have read.

I might have heard Paul Reed Smith say it in an interview. I might have to check Youtube.
PRS often talks about Ted McCarty, wood dynamics, and coining the term "Michigan maple" because people identify vintage Gibsons with Kalamazoo.

That or I remember hearing it on a DVD. It was either Solidbody: The 50 Year Guitar War, StratMasters, or the Tele DVD. Or the book Million Dollar Les Paul. It has to be one of those sources, I can't imagine getting that info from somewhere else. I'll have to back and check now.  lol

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

I love my R8 plain top.  I've played R9's and R0's... They are all very consistant to my ear. I really dont think you can go wrong. 

That said I like flame tops but I couldn't afford 2000 extra dollars. So go with what you like.  If the looks of the guitar speak to you that is important also.

If your heart is set on the flame top you will not be happy with a plain top no matter how good the tone is.

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

I don't get wanting a flame or 10 top or whatever tops you call them...I'd have the plainist of plain Les Pauls if the tone was great...anything but pink or baby blue sparkle and I'd be good to go...

Flame is a bonus...and if you had a bad tone, I'd point that out to you far quicker than saying you had a decent looking guitar.

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

Gold Top= Problem Solved smile

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

DaveWammbarro wrote:

I don't get wanting a flame or 10 top or whatever tops you call them...I'd have the plainist of plain Les Pauls if the tone was great...anything but pink or baby blue sparkle and I'd be good to go...

Flame is a bonus...and if you had a bad tone, I'd point that out to you far quicker than saying you had a decent looking guitar.

+1 on that

18

Re: Plain Top vs Flame Top

The maple top is 1/4'' thick, and I would'nt think the wood grain pattern it's self would play a big role in tone brightness. It's the overall make up that creates the tone...and your hands.
Most LP's from 58'-60' were plain. It's the flame top examples that created the legend and hoopla!
My 89' vintage sunburst is a plain top.... Thanks >>DAN

79' Epiphone Genesis Custom, 89' pre-reissue Les Paul Standard, 90'Strat Plus,
02' Tele (ash), 91' Martin HD-28, Epi A-12 acoustic, Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12