Topic: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

Hi all,

I'm using a LP Gold Top/Cornell 18/20 as a pub/club rig. It's a great set up but there's no FX loop so I don't use delay.
I've been reading about the possibility of using the line out on my Hotplate to crate a loop, basically running from the out into a delay then into a slaved power amp/cab.
This would give a dry signal thru the plexi and a wet signal through the power amp. Sounds good. But I don't want to splash the cash only to find it doesn't work.
Anyone here used this system, or similar, and had good results?

cheers,

Neil

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

Your best bet is to find a good distortion/OD pedal and run the amp clean and loud. Then use the distortion before the delay.
As what an effects loop does is puts the delay in after the preamp. If you're using a completely clean tone there is no need to use an effects loop, doesn't have much effect. But as the preamp is where the gain comes from you're better with certain pedals after it.
So, get your gain earlier in the line from a pedal.
There are some fantastic pedals out there. Fulltone would be the ones to look at I'd say, and Wayhuge seem to be making some great pedals too.

Just an idea  wink

3 (edited by jakey 2010-08-05 02:43:56)

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

Jimi_lp wrote:

Your best bet is to find a good distortion/OD pedal and run the amp clean and loud. Then use the distortion before the delay.
As what an effects loop does is puts the delay in after the preamp. If you're using a completely clean tone there is no need to use an effects loop, doesn't have much effect. But as the preamp is where the gain comes from you're better with certain pedals after it.
So, get your gain earlier in the line from a pedal.
There are some fantastic pedals out there. Fulltone would be the ones to look at I'd say, and Wayhuge seem to be making some great pedals too.

Just an idea  wink

Rob,

I agree with Jimi, but the key to this and getting the big sound is parallel mixing the delay signal. Basically you need to run your distortions into a parallel loop box, and put the delay in the looper (the best ones on the market are the Gigrig Wetbox, Suhr, RJM and I believe Radial Eng make one). This means when your signal hits the wetbox thing it splits into two- one delayed signal, one not delayed. They then get mixed back at the end of the looper and back in. You need to make sure your delay pedal has a 'kill dry' type button on it (eg meaning that you can remove the initial guitar signal). If you read my post on the sticky on Joe's Reverb tone it's got all the details in, but trust me, for a $100 investment in a parallel looping box, this is about the best investment you'll ever make.

THis will explain all

http://www.thegigrig.com/acatalog/TheGi … t_Box.html

PS I run a Cornell 18/20 too (in stereo with a Fender 57 twin) with delays as above. It's tone nirvana.


PPS- that note on the other thread- pasted here for you- David and Dg refer to David Gilmour.

Wanted to post this as it's a great piece of advice re parallel delay mixing for mono amps from someone I know and is another huge Gilmour fan...
It very much applies to JB tone too, and works with a mono rig for those of us without stereo!
In the last few years I've used:
Boss RV-3
Boss DD-2
Maxon AD-900
Blackbox Quicksilver
Mad Professor Deep Blue Delay
Trex Replica
These are some of the best delays out there, but I've always had trouble getting them to sound exactly right.
Basically no matter how good a delay is, whether it's a tc2290 or a Cornish TES, David doesn't let his main signal go through it- it gets split so one side goes straight through and one side goes to a delay and then they get mixed back together.
I wanted to try this, but the first obstacle was that the delay should be set to 100% wet to sound right. My Replica doesn't do this. So I got an old Boss DD-2 again as well as a Radial Bigshot Mix pedal. !@#$%^&! It sounds great! No more crappy AD/DA conversions messing with my killer distortion sound! No more of the blurring the edges of the notes and squashing of the harmonics I've been trying so hard to accentuate. All the clarity and liveliness of the orignal signal is there, and I can just mix in as much or little delay as I want. A side benefit that I didn't expect is that the DD-2 actually sounds better at 100% wet, the delays are even warmer sounding this way.
So to everyone with a delay pedal: get a parallel mixer!
Some more observations:
If you're going for the early(pre-'75) sounds, this whole thing may not matter so much. In fact you may WANT the edges blurred and the delay to "take over" the tone. The Replica, the Quicksilver, and other analog-styled delays are great for this.
Conversely I'm going for the '76-on tones and I believe parallel-mixed delay has been an integral part of DG's tone since then. The Boss DD series and the new TC Nova should work perfectly for this.
A note on the Mad Professor Delay- this pedal features built-in parallel mixing. By no coincidence this was the best-sounding delay I tried before I knew exactly what I was looking for in a delay, but I sold it to try out the Replica. The downside(to me) is that the repeats were voiced kind of dark IMO, so even though the parallel mix design is great(and should be featured in more delay pedals!) I wouldn't be surprised If I still prefer the DD-2/mixer combo over it. Hopefully I will get to compare them someday
.
The route is thus:- Radial Bigshot Mix at the end of the chain or close to it. This pedal is bypassed when bypassed  . When engaged however, this pedal splits(and buffers, for those wondering) the signal in two. One side goes directly to the output; this is your main guitar sound. The other side goes to a send/return loop. This is where you put your delay. Delay should be set to 100% wet. Then there is a knob on the Bigshot that adjusts how much of the effect will be mixed back in at the output- however one whole side of the mixer is dry so even though the delay pedal is set to 100% the maximum delay you'll hear at the output is 50%- or in other words the delay would be the same volume level as the dry signal. Mine is set considerably lower than that for typical lead sounds.
The real beauty of this system though, is that your dry signal stays intact. That kickass lead tone we've worked so hard to achieve, that carefully crafted  comp> distortion> EQ> tone, goes straight through the pedal to the output. Which is unlike MOST delay pedals that will convert your sonic work of art into a digtal signal before(weakly) turning it back into analog.
The parallel mix system seperates the two so your dry signal stays analog and only your effected signal gets digitized.
_________________
Worth mentioning that we need to get a list here for quick reference as to what delays do a "true" 100% wet with no dry. These are the ones I know do "true" 100% wet.
Boss DD-2 (with dummy plug)
Boss DD-3
TC Electronics Nova Delay
Boss DD20 giga Delay
MXR Delay system II (the best delay unit EVER!!!)
TC D-two
Line 6 Echo Park
Line 6 DL4
Empress Super Delay
Diamond Memory Lane
Eventide Timefactor
Yamaha UD stomp
Skreddy Echo
TC 2290
Skrydstrup DDL Custom Delay
Providence Delay 80 (with dummy plug)
EHX Deluxe Memory Man
Ibanez DE7
I trust this assists and I hope this information helps someone!

"Who wants an orange whip? Orange whip? Orange whip? Three orange whips...."

JB LP Goldtop No. 290- Aged...rather like me.

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

Thanks guys,

Loop idea is worth investigating. But I fear running the Cornell loud and clean is out of the question. Presumably in that case the loop means your signal from guitar is still hitting an amp in which both pre and power amp tubes are being pushed hard? Ie, your delay still comes before distortion.

Maybe I'll experiment with running a cleanish DRRI as a second amp. Thats if I can get a second amp in the car alongside guitars, head, 2x12, PA, monitor, lights etc smile

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

Not really. If you run the amp clean then there won't be distortion in the amp. Yes the amp can get pushed into a bit of an overdrive but the majority of distortion from the pedal will sort this.
I used to run in the loop but got fed up setting up at gigs with the loop and fed up turning up finding out I'm not allowed to use my amp and I've to use an amp with no loop. So I had to find a new way. The distortion pedal is the best.
Sometimes I do need to tweak the level of the delay pedals (I use digital and analogue) but that's very quickly done smile

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

Hey all,

I use a Ocean EFX Vintage Echo all the time with my rig.  I run it as the last pedal in my line up.  It is on about one third ALL THE TIME.  I never turn it off.  I have another delay... a TC Nova which is set for crazy U2 type stuff and that is just before the ECHO. 

So basically the pedal board is Tuner-> Wah-> Fulltone Fatboost-> Fulltone Fulldrive-> TC Nova Delay-> Vintage Echo-> Vox AC30. 

As I said I play real loud and have never had a delay problem.  You get a real nice warm delay from the Ocean EFX Echo. I never turn it off...

I also have a Boss DD7 which is fine I guess but It tends to be somewhat overpowering. I have to keep it really low to stay manageable.

I would recommend getting a good delay and just playing with it in the chain as the last pedal. Try it at different levels and see what you think.

7 (edited by stratpaulguy86 2010-08-06 13:06:30)

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

Tons of famous players use delay pedals in front of their amps.  I use to run them via effects loop but man it sucked having all the extra cable lying around just for a few pedals.  I broke down and bought 3 vintage EP-3 Echoplex's.  I just do what Eric Johnson does and run them right in front of the amps.  This method works great as the Echoplex was designed to run this way.  The 3rd Echoplex went to my dad for his birthday/father's day gift.  Actually I've also had luck with a Boss DD-3 and Line 6 DL4 in front of the amps.  You have to be a little careful with the delay level and feedback but it's very do-able.  My current signal path:


Guitar---wah--tuner--VL Amp Selector---A) Dejavibe---CS9 Chorus---Echoplex #1---Super Reverb (vibrato channel)
                                                       B) Fuzzface---Octafuzz--TS808--Boss DD3--Super Reverb (normal channel)
                                                       C) BK Tube Driver---Echoplex #2----Keeley Compressor--Metro Superlead

Believe it or not, it all works very nicely together.  Each setting (A, B, C) has a different delay setting.  Clean has the most echo, dirty rhythm the least, and lead somewhere between the other two.  No loops, no mixers, no extra cable.   cool

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

Justin - aren't you due for a new demo vid on Youtube? It looks like you have 'another' new rig  wink !!! How do you like the Octafuzz? I almost bought one yesterday...

Gits: '03 Gibson Historic R7 Goldtop, '06 Gibson R8 Plaintop, MIJ '62 RI Strat,  and others...
Amps: '99 Marshall 1987x Plexi RI, 1969 Fender Super Reverb

My band: www.meanbones.com

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

I find in line (without going as far as an echoplex (ie, saving some pennies)) using an analogue delay in line is probably best.
Josh Homme gets some cool (though weird) delayed sounds with Them Crooked Vultures. And he has many analogue delays on his board. I think 3 or 4. I know he has a Moog and one of those Boss Roland reissues.

Re: delay with a plexi and no FX loop

kevman13 wrote:

Justin - aren't you due for a new demo vid on Youtube? It looks like you have 'another' new rig  wink !!! How do you like the Octafuzz? I almost bought one yesterday...


I liked the rack rig a lot, but the RJM unit I bought was a lemon.  Ron at RJM is going to either repair it or send me a new one though.  So I'll probably do a rig demo with my new pedalboard lineup in the near future.  Regarding the Octafuzz, it's a super neat pedal.  It's not a desert island pedal but it adds some cool sounds and textures especially if you are a Hendrix fan.  They are really cheap nowdays, you can sometimes get one for less than $100.  With the Fuzzface + Octafuzz you get this incredible wall of fuzz that screams...very reminicent of Hendrix.  Also, the Fuzz only setting on the Octafuzz is actually really good.  It's very aggressive with a lot of "spit" so if smooth Fuzzface type tones are your bag I'd recommend something else.

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.