• From: Florida, USA
  • Registered: 2008-06-04
  • Posts: 1,420

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate here....
When PRS started making SE models... that was a step in the money hungry, lower quality direction
When PRS started making class a tube maps boutique style and over priced.... hands in more baskets.
When PRS started making high priced acoustics..... hands in more baskets.

Is making a GREAT solidbody electric guitar in America "enough" for a company anymore?

I'll also play devil's advocate.  I agree that Paul Reed Smith runs a top notch company.  His SE line guitars are affordable, well constructed, beautiful, and sound pretty darn good.  So I had this discussion with my dad the other day.  We were talking about going into the amplifier biz in the future.  So I asked what he would charge for a basic build and it was around $1500 to $2000.  Problem is 99% of guitar players out there will not spend over $1000 on an amplifier.  I've only done it once or twice and I'm a gear NUT.  So back to PRS....

The SE line allows average income musicians the opportunity to acquire a quality instrument.  Unlike the Epiphone line, the SE line is much more consistant and IMO looks less shoddy.

Now, the takeover of Doug Sewell's amps and then charging $3K + for just a head was a bit much.  They DO sound really good (the Dallas...very nice) but grossly overpriced for what they are.  He is now offering a "II" line that is more budget minded ($1600-$2000), still a little pricey but much more competetive to other boutique amps out there.  I guess my point is that having "hands in baskets" doesn't have to be an evil thing as long as you are going about it the right way.  Mr. Smith is just trying to survive and progress his company into new areas.  His endorsees are not all household names like Fender requires.  David Grissom, Johnny Hiland, and Al Di Meola are all endorsed and honored with their own guitars.  Fender seems to go through these periods where they get away from the heart of what Leo originally envisioned for his company.  More and more Fender is starting to operate the way they did in the CBS days.

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.
  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

I believe Mr. Paul Reed Smith is a true believer in the american dream.  His hero is Leo Fender and has said many times if there was one instrument he wished he designed it would have been the Stratocaster.  Building cheap guitars for the masses is not money hungry, its called staying alive.  If they hadn't come out with those guitar which btw are their top selling instruments they would have had major cutbacks to their US line of guitars and would most likely have laid people off from their work force.  I'm not joking when I say that the SE like makes up about half their sales!  Not everyone is going to spend more then $1500 for a guitar and its stupid not to have a top quality product line to get into that maket that is under a grand.  I myself don't ever plan on buying another guitar that expensive just for the simple fact that you can get a great guitar from Mexico, Korea, China.  Its all CNC routed to the thousanth of an inch!  Do you know how close that is?  Yeah an american guitar might have better quality woods, and craftsman ship but honesty do you not realize that your prized American guitar was mostly overhead?  Most of the problems with the seas guitars is the craftmen didn't dial the freakin guitar in like making a perfectly level fret board, or perfectly crowned frets... like I said they hit their spec and move on.  Even Fender, and Gibson standards aren't setup perfect out the door.  Custom Shops generally are better because of this and they save their best features for the most expensive guitars.  PRS is the lesser of 2 evils.  I've had Fenders and I've had Gibsons and the only thing I can tell you is I've yet to find one that I didn't like lemons or not they are all cool in their own way.  If you don't like them copying your guitars just don't make deals with the devils.  Its not going to change my opinion about Fender instruments, I like a little fight to my setup.  Hate the people involved not the guitars!

AD3THREE's Website

  • Registered: 2007-11-04
  • Posts: 404

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

OK I've read this entire thread and I think I am ready to comment.

First... When it comes to companies screwing people for the almighty dollar... we live in America. The home and basic designer of Cut Throat Capitalism.  The company doesnt care about workers or benefits or unions or product unless it affects the bottom line.  It is US LAW that the company has to try at all possible to make money for the shareholders.  They are legally more important than anything.

Ok so we should expect to get screwed by the system, and we should expect cars to break down every 15000 miles and for our computers to fail every 6 months and for best buy not to care. 

Guitars are different... A guitar is an extention of our body.  Its a very magical thing. The tone, feel, quality, name stand for you and what you stand for.  Holding a Gibson Guitar in your hands says something about who you are and what makes you tick.  Holding a Strat in your hands says something about you.  We like different guitars because in our core we are different players.

So that said I feel like guitar makers and Amp makers have a ethical responsibility to up hold certain traditions and act in responsible ways.  After all I play a Gibson Les Paul not only because it rocks and feels good and plays like a dream, but because in my ego centered world I want to be a Gibson Les Paul Guy. 

A Les Paul says things to me.  Thoughts of Page, Bonamassa, The Edge, Clapton's early years, and countless classic rock float thru my head.  The tones they made, the image they created.  I want some of that. People look at my guitar and they ask me questions about it. It shows that you care about your craft when you play a 3000 dollar guitar.  I dont think it sounds different to those in the audience but I would play different if it was an epiphone les paul rather than a gibson. 

So this is why Joe and Phil are pissed, and why we get so mad at crappy new attempts and gimmicks added to Les Pauls or Strats. Or why we wonder why its so hard to make a reissue that doesnt have completely obvious mistakes. Like why the top carve is wrong on all new gibsons. Why the Tail piece is wrong. Why cant they get it right.

Guitars are my passion and I'd like to think that there is more passion placed in the instrument that is going into my hands than passion spent trying to make a buck. 

If Passion was spent in making awsome guitars then the money would show up. 

But we live in America and thats not the American way.

  • Registered: 2009-10-10
  • Posts: 438

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

It did not use to be the American way.  The first car I bought (I am showing my age here!), the first TV I bought, they did not even try to sell me a warranty.  It was a given that they would simply stand behind their product and you did not have to pay extra for it! There was actually a moral obligation to treat people right and provide them with good customer service.  Capitalism means free market, which means I won't buy any more new Fender products because they screwed two of my favorite guitarists. We all have choices and we can choose not to give our business to those who are crooked.  Hallelujah!

  • Rocket
  • Rocket
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  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2006-04-26
  • Posts: 10,275

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

Unbelievable? Nope, not any more.  Unbelievably low class move déjà vu!  mad
I have to read the entire thread before I can say anything else.

Cheap Rock OFF & Steal Your Faith (Thank goodness latter cannot happen),
Rocket

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
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  • From: Harrison, Arkansas
  • Registered: 2006-04-21
  • Posts: 3,155

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

jgalvan8804 wrote:

OK I've read this entire thread and I think I am ready to comment.

First... When it comes to companies screwing people for the almighty dollar... we live in America. The home and basic designer of Cut Throat Capitalism.  The company doesnt care about workers or benefits or unions or product unless it affects the bottom line.  It is US LAW that the company has to try at all possible to make money for the shareholders.  They are legally more important than anything.

Ok so we should expect to get screwed by the system, and we should expect cars to break down every 15000 miles and for our computers to fail every 6 months and for best buy not to care. 

Guitars are different... A guitar is an extention of our body.  Its a very magical thing. The tone, feel, quality, name stand for you and what you stand for.  Holding a Gibson Guitar in your hands says something about who you are and what makes you tick.  Holding a Strat in your hands says something about you.  We like different guitars because in our core we are different players.

So that said I feel like guitar makers and Amp makers have a ethical responsibility to up hold certain traditions and act in responsible ways.  After all I play a Gibson Les Paul not only because it rocks and feels good and plays like a dream, but because in my ego centered world I want to be a Gibson Les Paul Guy. 

A Les Paul says things to me.  Thoughts of Page, Bonamassa, The Edge, Clapton's early years, and countless classic rock float thru my head.  The tones they made, the image they created.  I want some of that. People look at my guitar and they ask me questions about it. It shows that you care about your craft when you play a 3000 dollar guitar.  I dont think it sounds different to those in the audience but I would play different if it was an epiphone les paul rather than a gibson. 

So this is why Joe and Phil are pissed, and why we get so mad at crappy new attempts and gimmicks added to Les Pauls or Strats. Or why we wonder why its so hard to make a reissue that doesnt have completely obvious mistakes. Like why the top carve is wrong on all new gibsons. Why the Tail piece is wrong. Why cant they get it right.

Guitars are my passion and I'd like to think that there is more passion placed in the instrument that is going into my hands than passion spent trying to make a buck. 

If Passion was spent in making awsome guitars then the money would show up. 

But we live in America and thats not the American way.


Car enthusiasts would say the same thing about car companies having an ethical responsibility. Bottom line is, it's capitalism, and they're going to worry about the bottom line. If they can create a cheaper product and still sell a ton of them, they will do it.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

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  • From: Scotland
  • Registered: 2009-02-11
  • Posts: 453

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:
Fuzzblues wrote:

He truly cares about what he is doing and after 25 years still has the drive to do it and keep moving forward while remaining traditional to what guitarists want. Gibson dark fire/dusk tiger or VG strat anyone?

Just to play devil's advocate here....
When PRS started making SE models... that was a step in the money hungry, lower quality direction
When PRS started making class a tube maps boutique style and over priced.... hands in more baskets.
When PRS started making high priced acoustics..... hands in more baskets.

Is making a GREAT solidbody electric guitar in America "enough" for a company anymore?


I think calling them moneu hungry is a bit harsh. I have a PRS SE semi hollow and it has one of the best neck shapes and finishes on a guitar I have seen. At the time I could never afford an american made PRS so the SE line was perfect for me.

Where do we draw the line with company expansion. Look at taylor, now making electrics. Same with collings. Are Martin the only viable company because they are not straying into other areas of the market?

  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
  • Posts: 5,807

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

I've read all the responses here, and I have something to add.

I'm not a fan on the branding of cheaper guitars. If it's from your company - you shouldn't be afraid to put your name on it.
They do something in branding to set it apart from its higher quality, more expensive counterparts.

PRS = SE
Fender = Squier
ESP = LTD
Gibson = Epiphone

It's like they're saying... using a membership analogy that if you want to be a "bronze member" you get the cheaper version until you get the "platinum membership" which is more expensive. If I ever come out with a guitar company, the cheaper models will not bear a different brand than my top of the line ones. I don't like the divide. I should be willing to put my name on everything that's made underneath me.

Plus, we might not be sitting here having this conversation if it weren't for these labels.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool
  • Registered: 2008-07-05
  • Posts: 85

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

Plus, we might not be sitting here having this conversation if it weren't for these labels


I agree with you re: the branding issue - put your name on it and roll with it.  Otherwise they are creating an elitist situation.  I understand the need for branding but they need to approach it in a different way.

This conversation doesn't have anything to do with branding as much as its about Fenders knocking off these guitars...seems far more than a coincidence to me.

28 Reply by macg1 (edited by macg1 2010-04-19 13:38:22)

  • macg1
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  • From: St. Petersburg, FL
  • Registered: 2010-01-21
  • Posts: 1,020

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

I will never own another Fender instrument ever again.  If there is a strat craving I will go G&L or Musicman for sure.  JB is right that Gibson's do play better and I have a 1980 LP Standard and a FB VII.  Unfortunately my main rig is an old Bandmaster from 1966, but I try to convince myself that it is ok to own their vintage stuff because they ran a  better business when Leo was around...  Phil is a monster player and would love to see what he does with a LP on his hands.  I think JB's playing and writing has improved by leaps and bounds since he made the transition to Gibbos.  Reminds me what all my friends told me when I got my LP: "welcome to the big boys' club!".

Amp: Firebird Musical Amplifiers
Guitars:62 LP SG , 02 FB VII, JB FB I, 76 Electra Omega, 64 Firebird V, 73 LPC, 61 Custom Tele, 59 and 60 Melody Maker
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  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

I wanna comment on the brandings for a moment of your time.  Squire is a brand all to its self that fender purchased in the 60's just like Gibson did with Epiphone.  Fender does not put Squire on their cheaper instruments.  Look at the Standard Stratocaster made in Mexico.  The point is Squire may be owned and influenced by Fender big time but they make their own creations too.  With Fender you at least get price ranges to fall into and even though it feels like I'm the only Fender guy left on this board I'll wear that like a badge of honor. 

So Gibsons play better as its been said.  Sure you get a shorter scale neck of course it will have less string tention, but they don't get as good of intonation.  If you really have a hard time with playing a Strat after playing a Les Paul why don't you just put smaller guage strings on.  Might not be the same but it would get you in the ball park.  I've tried a lot of guitars out and to be honest if I wanted a guitar that could play itself I would have switch to an Ibanez or Jackson a long time ago.  I love that feeling of having to fight for that note when you bend a string.  I love Gibsons, but I also Love Fenders and I don't care what Joe's opinion or anybody elses are the Bottom Line is Both of them make damn good guitars that you can either take em or leave em.  Best of all its a buyers market on Ebay so buy up!

AD3THREE's Website

  • Registered: 2009-10-27
  • Posts: 250

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

Maybe a different perspective.  Fender's CS has very close similarities to Phil's, but not exact IMO. Now listen to all of our favorite guitar players like Joe B and can we say with a discerning ear that some of their riffs weren't taken from someone else with no royalties being paid? Is this really different?

I don't feel the pain enough to say I would never play a Strat over this. I feel Les Pauls of today are the most inconsistent quality then any other big name guitar manufacturer, so should we boycott Gibson over this very serious flaw in business practice and if so, by time we get through each companies bad laundry, you'll be wiping your butt with leaves and drinking from the streams.

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

Well said, I'm glad somebody else is standing up for Fender as its getting its butt handed to itself!

t92780 wrote:

Maybe a different perspective.  Fender's CS has very close similarities to Phil's, but not exact IMO. Now listen to all of our favorite guitar players like Joe B and can we say with a discerning ear that some of their riffs weren't taken from someone else with no royalties being paid? Is this really different?

I don't feel the pain enough to say I would never play a Strat over this. I feel Les Pauls of today are the most inconsistent quality then any other big name guitar manufacturer, so should we boycott Gibson over this very serious flaw in business practice and if so, by time we get through each companies bad laundry, you'll be wiping your butt with leaves and drinking from the streams.

AD3THREE's Website

  • From: Italy
  • Registered: 2010-04-19
  • Posts: 24

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

I'm quite certain that one day sooner or later you'll be playing strictly strat,..for sure !!

Joe Bonamassa wrote:

I honestly feel for Phil cause I know the feeling. This shows the levels of Fender's nonsense....  They copied my guitar and now Phil's.  They do it to guys in certain stages of their careers when they feel " What are they gonna do?"  Again there is a reason for all my anti Fender stuff around here.  As you can see. 
Sorry Phil.. and btw..Gibson's play better.
Joe B.

Fender strat '62 custom shop relic/AgostinCustom CL-111-KR/
'69 Marshall 50watt Jmp 1987 smallbox/Marshall 6100.
king of tone OD/BossDS1/line6 dl4/Foxrox Aquavibe/chicago iron octavia/70's Vox Wah/Boss rt20/holy grail reverb/Mogami
  • From: Burlington, Ont Canada
  • Registered: 2010-04-01
  • Posts: 365

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

Bottom line is this IMHO: Fender should 'man up' and give Phil his due. This isn't about branding and quality, etc. It's about respect. Joe said it best - they tend to "do it to certain artists at certain stages of their careers". If Phil or Joe were household names (soon to be I hope) like John Mayer they would NEVER have done what they have done. Artists sue other artists for plagerism - why not sue a guitar manufacturer? I just sold my Gibson LP Studio in a bid to fund the purchase of a '57 VOS Gold Top. I should have sold my '62 RI Strat. The Strat is now officially for sale. Cheap. Dirt cheap. The whole SRV thing kind of "Stratted me out" anyway - for lack of a better term. SELL YOUR STRATS! SATURATE THE MARKET! DRIVE THE PRICE DOWN!

Gits: '03 Gibson Historic R7 Goldtop, '06 Gibson R8 Plaintop, MIJ '62 RI Strat,  and others...
Amps: '99 Marshall 1987x Plexi RI, 1969 Fender Super Reverb

My band: www.meanbones.com
  • Registered: 2009-10-27
  • Posts: 250

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

Kev:  Fender to man up to what, that they potentially looked at One Of Their Own Manufactured Guitars and how it was relicing and potentially took some artisitc values from it?

Should everybody boycott Suhr and other Strat styled guitars, as these are very near designs from Fender....hmmm?  I also  wonder how many big or little things Fender might have done for Phil over the years that never gets discussed?

35 Reply by kevman13 (edited by kevman13 2010-04-20 11:53:16)

  • From: Burlington, Ont Canada
  • Registered: 2010-04-01
  • Posts: 365

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

Potentially took artistic values from it??  Are you serious? Have you seen the pics? By 'Man Up' I mean actually signing Philip Sayce to an endorsement deal and paying him. If it's a 'one off' guitar - fine. Boycott Suhr and other Strat styled guitars? Of course not - they would be the first to tell you where they got their design ideas from. But for Fender to say that CS guitar has nothing to do with Phil Sayces....yeah right.

t92780 wrote:

Kev:  Fender to man up to what, that they potentially looked at One Of Their Own Manufactured Guitars and how it was relicing and potentially took some artisitc values from it?

Should everybody boycott Suhr and other Strat styled guitars, as these are very near designs from Fender....hmmm?  I also  wonder how many big or little things Fender might have done for Phil over the years that never gets discussed?

Gits: '03 Gibson Historic R7 Goldtop, '06 Gibson R8 Plaintop, MIJ '62 RI Strat,  and others...
Amps: '99 Marshall 1987x Plexi RI, 1969 Fender Super Reverb

My band: www.meanbones.com
  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
  • Posts: 5,807

Re: Fender fiasco deja vu ???

If I was Phil, I'd team up with MusicMan, Tom Anderson, G&L, or some other 'better than strat' company and have a sig model made.... or even a Gibson.

Tom Anderson strats don't have the headstock shape... but they are a strat to perfection.

I don't mind "s" shaped guitars if they are a drastic improvement on the comfort and tone.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool