• Registered: 2009-10-10
  • Posts: 438

Topic: Are they worth it?

I am seriously contemplating a Carol Ann, Two Rock, or Fuchs head.  Obviously, these are very expensive amps. I would have to sell one of my vintage Blackface Fender heads, one of my Strats, and my BK Butler Tube Driver to pull this off (and maybe the family dog!).  Joe's tones on the "Rig Rundown" and Guitar Center Amp Rig videos just about take my breath away.  I realize these are combined with a Marshall Jubilee, but the smooth singing tones of these amps along with the articulation sounds like tonal nirvana to me.  Do you guys that play these amps feel they are worth the price?  For example, would a Carol Ann sound two thousand dollars better than my Blackface Fender Bassman head? It is really difficult to shell out this kind of money when I can't even try them out first.  I am also aware that not only tone goes into the equation, but the feel of the amps.  When Joe plays them I get the feeling that along with the outstanding tone, he can still feel the metal in the strings.  Okay, I have probably made my point.  What do you tone gurus think?

  • Registered: 2007-09-30
  • Posts: 556

Re: Are they worth it?

I have a Two Rock and a Fuchs.  The best thing I can tell you is go try one... and play it through a cab that doesn't have v30's or 25 watt greenbacks in them - they don't match this amp style well.  These amps like to be played loudly too.  If you like them during your demo, its certainly worth it.  I'm not particualr to most blackface Fenders though.  You can't compare them to a blackface bassman either - these amps have more balls, yet are so smooth they seem clean.  They aren't for everybody.  They are so clear that you will hear any mistakes you make.

Ben

  • From: N. Little Rock, AR.
  • Registered: 2007-03-02
  • Posts: 463

Re: Are they worth it?

There are other options!

    Brown Note's D'Lite or a Ceriatone will get you into that Dumble thing for less $$$. As well as Metro, Splawn or a number of others for a Plexi styled Amp.
   
    And I would really consider taking a weekend trip to some place where you can try an Amp you're interested in. Either a shop, or maybe a Forum Member who has one of these Amps.

    Where are you located? Maybe between everyone here, we can find a place/person who has them.

    And remember this: Robben Ford does profess his love for his Dumble Amps. But, he often plays a rental Twin with a Zendrive. And he does some shows with a Blackfaced Super.

    Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I don't think any single Amp is going to make you sound like somebody else (JB). And many Amps WILL get you very close to what you are talking about.

    I'd definately wait until an opportunity to try some of these Amps arises. I wouldn't want to hear about your regretting the sale of an old Amp you may not be able to replace.

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner
  • Registered: 2008-07-05
  • Posts: 85

Re: Are they worth it?

Well, having owned a CA OD2-100, a Ceriatone ODS, a Fuchs modded Deluxe, and currently a CA OD2r - here's my take on it: The big power platforms on some of these are wasted unless you can really open them up.  My OD2-100 was magic but brutaly loud to really get going.  Total overkill.  The Ceriatone was a serious bang for the buck and really sounded great.  The Fuchs modded Deluxe was just meh, and not anywhere near as nice as his regular builds.  My OD2r is really a killer little amp, but is in the middle of a trade back up to a 50 watt OD2.  In the end I found the 50 watter is the perfect platform and I was missing having a loop.

The Carol Ann's are amazing amps period.  Are they worth it? In the end the amp is a tool, but these tools work really really well.  I'm really happy with mine.  The cleans are killer, the dirty tones are just to die for.  At one point I pulled a full genius manuever and sold my Bogner Ecstasy Classic to buy an AxeFx - thinking it would be the end of it all.  Yeah, it did a multi amp rig simulation, but I missed the simplicity of a real amp...that lead me back the the Fuchs > Ceriatone > Carol Ann path.  Truth be told I would probably have been smart to just stick with the Bogner  - it was KILLER.  But then I wouldn't have got bitten by the Carol Ann  wink  Keep in mind you're almost always hearing mixed tones coming from JB's rig, but rest assured the second you plug into the CA's you will hear THAT tone.

Only you will know if you can part with a vintage piece and be ok with it.  I support the "play it first" if you can method but sometimes thats not possible and you just have to jump in.   You can always do the pedal into a clean platform deal as was suggested, but for me I'll always concentrate on the amps basic tones first.  The Carol Ann has a very unique signature tone.  With the killer cleans and killer drive channel it is a pretty solid take care of most tones rig.   

Last, expensive doesn't equal good, but you really do get what you pay for on the level of all the amps mentioned in this thread.  $1800 will get you a pretty killer 2 amp rig consisting of a Ceriatone ODS and Marshally amp of some sort.  Lots of ways to do it without spending $5000 on amps.  I mean, you need a Les Paul too, right ?????  wink

  • From: N. Little Rock, AR.
  • Registered: 2007-03-02
  • Posts: 463

Re: Are they worth it?

This is cool! You've got a couple of people with hand's on experience with the Amps you are interested in.

    And I too feel that an Amp's Power Tubes have the really magic Tones in them. Pedals only get an approximation of what an Amp will do.
    I do think that you can get about 90% of the real deal with some good research and planning, and without spending all your $$$.

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner
  • Registered: 2009-10-10
  • Posts: 438

Re: Are they worth it?

Thanks for your input fellas.  I got together with the other guitar player in my band today and we worked on some stuff.  Ever have one of those days when you feel like you are playing with mittens on or you have concrete fingers?  Boy, I had one today.  Cranked my Bandmaster up to about 8, and it got brittle and my modulation effects went south on me. My rig didn't sound to bad but it had no feel at all.  I need some inspiration and maybe a new amp will help.  I hate to keep setting on these old Fender heads if they aren't quite getting me what I want.  I am about two hours from Nashville, surely I can find something there. I have had some other "boutique" amps and they did not work out for me. One was a Splawn Quick Rod. It was good but a  little too much of a 80's hair band sound. (Kind of a conflict with my balding head!)  The other was a Dr. Z Maz 18 NR. It was a good amp but not my cup of tea.  Starting to sound like the problem may be with the player (me) and not the equipment!

  • Registered: 2009-10-27
  • Posts: 250

Re: Are they worth it?

I agree -I would get a Ceriatone OTS and a Marshall-like amp and 2-cabinets over just a Two Rock, etc.  I personally don't have a tone like JB, I'm more of a one trick pony with a OTS, but agree, you could get more for your money then dropping $4-5K on one amp.

Steve E wrote:

Well, having owned a CA OD2-100, a Ceriatone ODS, a Fuchs modded Deluxe, and currently a CA OD2r - here's my take on it: The big power platforms on some of these are wasted unless you can really open them up.  My OD2-100 was magic but brutaly loud to really get going.  Total overkill.  The Ceriatone was a serious bang for the buck and really sounded great.  The Fuchs modded Deluxe was just meh, and not anywhere near as nice as his regular builds.  My OD2r is really a killer little amp, but is in the middle of a trade back up to a 50 watt OD2.  In the end I found the 50 watter is the perfect platform and I was missing having a loop.

The Carol Ann's are amazing amps period.  Are they worth it? In the end the amp is a tool, but these tools work really really well.  I'm really happy with mine.  The cleans are killer, the dirty tones are just to die for.  At one point I pulled a full genius manuever and sold my Bogner Ecstasy Classic to buy an AxeFx - thinking it would be the end of it all.  Yeah, it did a multi amp rig simulation, but I missed the simplicity of a real amp...that lead me back the the Fuchs > Ceriatone > Carol Ann path.  Truth be told I would probably have been smart to just stick with the Bogner  - it was KILLER.  But then I wouldn't have got bitten by the Carol Ann  wink  Keep in mind you're almost always hearing mixed tones coming from JB's rig, but rest assured the second you plug into the CA's you will hear THAT tone.

Only you will know if you can part with a vintage piece and be ok with it.  I support the "play it first" if you can method but sometimes thats not possible and you just have to jump in.   You can always do the pedal into a clean platform deal as was suggested, but for me I'll always concentrate on the amps basic tones first.  The Carol Ann has a very unique signature tone.  With the killer cleans and killer drive channel it is a pretty solid take care of most tones rig.   

Last, expensive doesn't equal good, but you really do get what you pay for on the level of all the amps mentioned in this thread.  $1800 will get you a pretty killer 2 amp rig consisting of a Ceriatone ODS and Marshally amp of some sort.  Lots of ways to do it without spending $5000 on amps.  I mean, you need a Les Paul too, right ?????  wink

  • From: N. Little Rock, AR.
  • Registered: 2007-03-02
  • Posts: 463

Re: Are they worth it?

There are quite a few GREAT Amps that don't get as much mention as I think they deserve, nowadays.

    Although not what most people think of right now, TopHat Amps have some wonderful stuff. They can really nail the Voxy stuff, as well as the BlackFaced stuff. And their Emplexador is much better than the other "Marshall" styled Amps I've heard.

    If you can find one of either of these models, you may have found your Holy Grail: Budda Stringmaster (Very much in the Dumble vein), and a Budda Dual Stage.
    The Dual Stage is what got Budda sued by Mesa, as the Tube Switching idea was created by the Budda guys while they were working for Mesa. But, GREAT Amp! Santana is one of those who uses a Dual Stage quite a LOT when recording. It's just not mentioned too much.

    Tone King among others really has some nice Fendery stuff going on.

    And yeah, Dr. Z has quite a few great Amps! A lot of people talk about the MAZ, the Stang Ray  and the Carmen Ghia. But their 6546 is pretty much a KILLIN' Plexi with an extra Channel. And there are actually quite a few varieties with Dr. Z.

    Just some more food for thought.........

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner
  • macg1
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  • From: St. Petersburg, FL
  • Registered: 2010-01-21
  • Posts: 1,020

Re: Are they worth it?

Well, being the owner of a 66 Bandmaster myself, that amp needs a bit of tweaking in order to get the right sound (for me).  Tung Sol 6L6's and 12AX7's and the JJ 12AT7 for the phase inverter was step one.  Setting the bias right at 35 mA or maybe a bit hotter was a second thing.  Third was really checking which of the 4 inputs work best with my LP Standard and FB VII guitars.  Fourth is deciding if jumping the two channels gets you in the right place.  Last but not least, the cabinet.  That amp has only sounded right with closed back cabs (I have a epi jr. 1x12 with cannabis rex and a Fender Showman closed back cab loaded with Celestion GT75's).  Doing that kind of tweaking really made that amp a perfect match for me. 

But remember, it all starts with the tubes, and no I do not buy into the inflated world of NOS tubes.  New tubes are just fine thanks!

Amp: Firebird Musical Amplifiers
Guitars:62 LP SG , 02 FB VII, JB FB I, 76 Electra Omega, 64 Firebird V, 73 LPC, 61 Custom Tele, 59 and 60 Melody Maker
Effects: Mythos Chupacabra, Strymon Deco/Flint
  • Registered: 2007-09-30
  • Posts: 556

Re: Are they worth it?

I have a Top Hat Emplexador too, it's a good amp, but I prefer my Marshall 1959 SLP Ri to it.  Yes a PC board over handwired, yada yada yada - its quality and it says Marshall  lol

Ben

  • From: Georgia
  • Registered: 2008-12-28
  • Posts: 8

Re: Are they worth it?

Try out a Egnater 4100. They sound great.

  • Registered: 2009-10-10
  • Posts: 438

Re: Are they worth it?

macg1 - I agree with all of your steps.  Not long after I purchased my Bandmaster and Bassman heads, I shipped them to David Allen at Allen Amps and he went through them with a fine tooth comb.  The Bandmaster came back with Tungsol 6L6's in it. I have jumped the channels and have used a Lehle P-Split to combine both channels.  I have went through several cabinets, with the winners being Marshall 1965A and 1965B closed back 4x10 cabinets. Something about a vintage Fender through 4x10's that just works. I can get close to Marshall with a Fulltone OCD and I can get semi-close to Dumble with a Barber Small Fry.  The problem is all of the overdrive is coming from the pedals. Sometimes I crank the amps, but then the modulation effects go haywire.   I want an amp that I can get good fluid drive tones from, with a good effects loop, and then take it over the top with a pedal.  I have worked with dual amp set-ups, but I rarely play a job where i can justify or need that elaborate of a set up.  Not knocking them because some of you guys have mastered it and get killer tones.  I just want to keep it simple.  I don't want to directly copy Joe, but when I see him go through his amps one by one, the Carol Ann and the Two Rock amps really speak to me. Does anyone make a good, simple 6L6 based amp with a good effects loop at a reasonable price? No Hot Rod or Blues Deluxes or Devilles please. (For the record, I am not interested in Mesa, maybe I had a lemon, but it was the worst amp experience I ever had.) Also, for what it is worth, my modulation effects are an Analogman Chorus and a Keeley DD-3.  Thanks again for all of the assistance!

  • macg1
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  • From: St. Petersburg, FL
  • Registered: 2010-01-21
  • Posts: 1,020

Re: Are they worth it?

Ok, I understand better what you are going for now.  How about those new Bogner Alchemists?  I heard one live the other day it was pretty darn great!  I would also try to revisit Joe's old Budda setup (a SD45 or SD80 sound like will do the trick for you.

Amp: Firebird Musical Amplifiers
Guitars:62 LP SG , 02 FB VII, JB FB I, 76 Electra Omega, 64 Firebird V, 73 LPC, 61 Custom Tele, 59 and 60 Melody Maker
Effects: Mythos Chupacabra, Strymon Deco/Flint
  • From: Pittsburgh
  • Registered: 2008-05-22
  • Posts: 261

Re: Are they worth it?

Owning a Fuchs ODS50 head I must say it's the besyt piece of gear I've ever purchased.

DannyG's Website

  • From: kentucky
  • Registered: 2008-03-06
  • Posts: 304

Re: Are they worth it?

hey hoosier rock....i feel your pain and I want to offer a few thoughts.

i get bored with my amps all the time....one day I love a rig and the next it sounds dull and lifeless to me....its kind of strange.

BUT, sometimes all it takes is letting a friend of mine jam on one of my amps and I'll set back and go "wow, why would i be unhappy with that sound???" and lots of times it gets me feeling better about things.

but to answer your question about whether a carol ann or other amps are $2000 better than what you have.....man, that is difficult to answer......to 95% of anybody that hears the amp the answer will be no....BUT, that doesnt mean you shouldnt do it......it boils down to whether you think you will be OK with getting rid of the old fenders and spending all that money for a new amp.  BUT, you should only do it, if you are OK with all of that....dont do it expecting the new amp to be a "10" and your old amp to be a "6" or something.

i own a meas triaxis, a marshall jvm, egnter rebel 20, fender blues deluxe and various pedals etc.... I also owned a fender twin and although that was supposed to be one of the "holy grails" of amps I couldnt stand it....i sold it and i have never looked back...no regrets.

everybody is different....one of my buddies has some mesa stuff as well and he owns a real old fender super reverb but he had his mind set on a "stephenson" head....been looking for one for 4 years.....found a "steal" on ebay for $1800.  he bought and loves it.....i think it is OK and no way would I have paid $1800 for it...I think my tone is better and he thinks his is better.

the best thing you could do is try to find a way to save your money and buy a carol ann and have it and the fender for a while to see what you think and then if the carol ann is still ringing your bell after a few months sell the fender.

masque's Website

  • Registered: 2007-11-04
  • Posts: 404

Re: Are they worth it?

If I can throw out my thoughts...

Go to Guitar Center and do what i do.  Say you are upgrading your rig and need to crank a few amps in their sound booth. Most stores have a crank booth.  Get some different amps in there that you are considering.  Play them for awile and see if any catch your attention.

I would check out Vox.  Some here think the China made ones are crap but i am here to tell you that is a lie.  I have a AC15 and an AC30.  Both new chineese models. They sound great. Awsome cleans and they break up nicely.

I use mine completely clean and i use different overdrives to keep things interesting. I mainly use a fulltone fulldrive and an OCEANEFX Texas Deuce.  They sound great. I think I spent 700 on the AC30 and 500 on the AC15. Not a bad deal. 

Those really expensive amps I have found sound really good in some situations but i question sometimes if I want them to sound good because they are so expensive.
I could think of lits of things to spend 3000 dollars on in addition to my amp.