• Registered: 2009-10-10
  • Posts: 438

Topic: Effects Loop, Should I?

I have been struggling with this for awhile. I have two slightly modified blackface Fender heads, a 65 Bandmaster and a 65 Bassman.  Both were gone through by David Allen at Allen Amps and they sound great.  One channel has a Marshall feel and the other is stock.  I love the tone of the old heads. Sometimes I combine the channels with a Lehle P-Split.  My only issue is this: They of course sound best cranked.  I like to use some delay, reverb, and chorus.  No effects loop so they have to go out front.  When the amps are cranked the modulation effects get out of control, especially the delay and reverb.  I am contemplating sending them off to a reputable amp guru (possibly Fuchs) and having an effects loop installed.  I am chasing a Dumble tone more than a Marshall tone.  I bought these amps to play, not to supplement my 401K plan.  It is very difficult for me to justify a Two Rock, Fuchs, or Van Weelden although that route is not out of the question.  I have considered Ceriatone also but am not convinced on these. Any one have any thoughts on this or experience with effects loop mods on old Fender heads?

  • Registered: 2009-01-01
  • Posts: 665

Re: Effects Loop, Should I?

HoosierRock wrote:

I have considered Ceriatone also but am not convinced on these.

Why not? I have three of Nik's amps: the JTM-45 Bluesbreaker combo, the Overtone S&M Special, and - the latest addition - the 36W EF86. They're all fantastic. The effects loop on the Overtone can be a bit tricky because you need a Kleinulator (which is their variant of the Dumbleator). I'm not saying they're better than a Two Rock or Fuchs - how could I? I never played them... - but I can say that Ceriatone make great amps.

  • Registered: 2007-09-30
  • Posts: 556

Re: Effects Loop, Should I?

I've played all of them, Two Rock, Fuchs, (own these), a ceriatone( friend owns one), and Joe's red Van Weelden.  The Van Weelden was awesome, but thats a different story all together (and price tag lol) smile ).  The Fuchs and Two Rock are similar, but can't compare.  The Two Rock has a more pronounced, thicker mid range, while the Fuchs has more chime to its mid range.  The Two Rock I would say has a smoother gain, and the Fuchs is more agressive, edgey, I like to use this as a cleaner amp (not completely clean, still has some hair on it, not ganna lie about that) because it cuts through so well this way, and vice versa on the Two Rock, the gain cuts through like butter.  The Fuchs has a Tube Biffered Effects Loop built in as well.  Both are excellent amps, but its more or less what you are looking for.  Both are user friendly too.  These amps are mega articulate and you hear every note so being precise is a must with these suckers.  The ceriatone didn't ring my bell and most likely I would never buy any products made by them, for many reasons, but thats for another time...

Hope it helps  Sorry for the book long post, hard to desribe so I tried to pick out the particulars that made them different.

Crank it up yo,
Ben

  • From: Florida, USA
  • Registered: 2008-06-04
  • Posts: 1,420

Re: Effects Loop, Should I?

Ceriatone makes a really great product for the price.  I have never had any problems with mine and I crank the holy hell out of it almost everyday.  Some people gripe about the trannies...if you are not satisfied with the tone of them drop some old vintage iron in there wink .  I couldn't be happier with my HRM Overtone.  I am anxiously waiting to hear it next to Ken's Carol Ann to see if it can even hang.  You can check my youtube videos under the same name and let your ears be the judge.

It's been covered a lot but there are some great budget Dumble alternatives:

Pedals: Ethos TLE, Hermida Zendrive, Zendrive 2, Mosferatu, Fuchs Plush Drive, Jetter GSR, Menatone Howie, etc.  You can get into the Dumble "camp" with a really nice tubescreamer type pedal into a loud clean amp like a Fender Twin, Super, or Dual Showman.  I like a TS808 RI and Fulldrive II Mosfet.

Amps:  The Ceriatone OTS is one of the cheaper options but as mentioned above think its a really great buy.  Nik is one of the best guys to deal with in the biz.  Even some actual Dumble owners on The Gear Page give them props (thats incredible because that place is home to some of the most rediculous cork-sniffers on the planet).

Brown Note offers really nice kits that are comperable in price to the Ceriatone stuff once you factor in the high shipping costs from Malaysia.  Brown Note is USA stuff, has great forum support, and comes with instructions.  If you are handy with a soldering iron I would recommend this route!  I hear Moss is a super guy to deal with at Brown Note.

Fuchs is now offering Traynor, Fender, and Musicman mods into one of his ODS amps.  As Ben has stated, they are VERY nice amps (only he has one of Andy's own models).  Andy is one of the most knowledgable amp gurus alive and has been inside many Dumbles.  Between Fuchs and Two Rock I don't think there is anyone out there doing it any better.

If you want to get your hands a little dirty and get the "real deal" the used market is as good as it'll likely ever get.  I've seen Two Rocks at $2K, Fuchs even less, Brown Note builds completely ready to rock for $800...

Check out The Gear Page Amp Emporiums for lots of REALLY nice stuff for crazy prices. cool

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.
  • Registered: 2009-10-10
  • Posts: 438

Re: Effects Loop, Should I?

Thanks for the detailed replies.  By the way, your excellent soundclips on your videos and Joe of course are partially responsible for this quest of mine.  I get in the Dumble ballpark now with my Barber Small Fry into the old Fender Heads.  But I would like to run the amps hotter, and when I do, my delay and reverb get out of control.  Since my Fender heads are already modded, I think I am going to have an effects loop installed in one of them before I take the big plunge on a Two Rock, Fuchs, or Ceriatone. Volume is an issue for me so I may look at a master volume mod also.  How loud are you guys running these amps to get into the sweet spots?  (I am using plexi glass baffles also)

  • Registered: 2007-09-30
  • Posts: 556

Re: Effects Loop, Should I?

Concert loud, not even joking.  If you are happy your sound, like you said you might as well add the loop into your amps seeing how you already have them modded.  The MV mod is going to hurt the sound somewhat so if you get it done, put some sort of a bypass on it to run it open if you want.

Ben

  • From: Florida, USA
  • Registered: 2008-06-04
  • Posts: 1,420

Re: Effects Loop, Should I?

HoosierRock wrote:

Thanks for the detailed replies.  By the way, your excellent soundclips on your videos and Joe of course are partially responsible for this quest of mine.  I get in the Dumble ballpark now with my Barber Small Fry into the old Fender Heads.  But I would like to run the amps hotter, and when I do, my delay and reverb get out of control.  Since my Fender heads are already modded, I think I am going to have an effects loop installed in one of them before I take the big plunge on a Two Rock, Fuchs, or Ceriatone. Volume is an issue for me so I may look at a master volume mod also.  How loud are you guys running these amps to get into the sweet spots?  (I am using plexi glass baffles also)

I've heard great things about the effects loops that Metro offers for their kits www.metroamp.com .   They are supposed to have zero loss to the tone.  I've never had any luck with delays in front of non-FX loop amps EXCEPT for a Line 6 DL4.  Don't ask me how or why, but that is the only delay pedal that sounds fantastic (to me) in front of an amplifier.  I think I read in the manual that it was designed that way and actually doesn't sound as good through loops. 

       Another option is to check out the Xotic Effects X-Blender.  Joe used one on his new album when running the vintage Fender amps.  He used a chorus, delay, and reverb in front of the Bassman heads with the X-Blender.  The neat thing is you can set the pedals very wet and blend exactly the amount of effects you want to the overall sound.  It's also true bypass!

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.
  • Registered: 2007-11-04
  • Posts: 404

Re: Effects Loop, Should I?

Ocean EFX makes an incredible Delay called the Vintage Delay that is perfect to run in front of an amp. It doesnt add a ton of delay unless you want it, but rather it adds just enough to give you that gentle reminder of what you just played.  I run it in front of my Vox AC30 and it sounds amazing.

I play pretty damn loud too. It sounds exactly the same at ear splitting volume as it does at bedroom levels.  So rather than spend 200-400 dollars... I dont really know what it would cost... I'd consider spending 170 first.

Also Joe mentioned a device that he used with his fenders to give them an effects loop like sound when adding chorus. I dont recall what the hell it was. But I bet someone here knows what its called.