Topic: Amp and speaker question....

Hey everyone....

I have been intrigued with the bluesy tones of Fender amps.  But unless I buy a used amp close to how old I am (over 40) [the 40 watt Pro Reverb 2x12 wuold be that target amp], Fender doesn't have a 40 watt 2x12 that will break the bank with reverb.  I really like the 57 twin but it doesn't have reverb and it is pricey.  A used one goes for what other options I am looking at new.  That option is the Super Reverb.  It is 45 watts but it is a 4x10.  I am very hesitant on 10 inch speakers. 

Can my fellow gearheads help me out on this one....?

How much is lost as far as tone is concerned with a 10 inch speaker vs a 12 inch?
Does the Super Reverb make up the difference tone wise cuz it is a 4x10?
I know the Bassman is a 4x10 and is held in high regards for its tone..will the Super reverb be as well?

I don't want to spend a ton of $$$ and I'd rather have new...unless someone here can convince me that used is the way to go besides the price

Thanks for all the help,

Barry

2009 Gibson Les Paul 1958 VOS (with black plastic)
2008 Gibson Les Paul Traditional Goldtop (with the cream plastic from the 58RI)
> Marshall Bluesbreaker 2 pedal >Boss sd-1> DD3 > Vox Ac15cc1

Re: Amp and speaker question....

LesPaul4 wrote:

Hey everyone....

I have been intrigued with the bluesy tones of Fender amps.  But unless I buy a used amp close to how old I am (over 40) [the 40 watt Pro Reverb 2x12 wuold be that target amp], Fender doesn't have a 40 watt 2x12 that will break the bank with reverb.  I really like the 57 twin but it doesn't have reverb and it is pricey.  A used one goes for what other options I am looking at new.  That option is the Super Reverb.  It is 45 watts but it is a 4x10.  I am very hesitant on 10 inch speakers. 

Can my fellow gearheads help me out on this one....?

How much is lost as far as tone is concerned with a 10 inch speaker vs a 12 inch?
Does the Super Reverb make up the difference tone wise cuz it is a 4x10?
I know the Bassman is a 4x10 and is held in high regards for its tone..will the Super reverb be as well?

I don't want to spend a ton of $$$ and I'd rather have new...unless someone here can convince me that used is the way to go besides the price

Thanks for all the help,

Barry

You will lose a little bass, but that can be a good thing when playin in the house

There is also a 40watt Vibrolux with a 2x10
Killer amp also

Re: Amp and speaker question....

I have an old '68 Silverface Super Reverb with 4 ceramic Weber speakers...WOW!  You just can't beat an old Fender combo for cleans and bluesy dirt.  The new reissues pale in comparison though.  You have nothing to worry about 10'' speakers as some of the most respected Fenders carried them (Super Reverb, Vibrolux Reverb, Princeton Reverb, '59 Bassman, etc.).  Yes the lows are a little less pronounced but that is a GOOD thing with Fenders, especially if you crank them.  The clean and overdriven tones stay tight and focused and are rated at lower wattages so they also break up nicely.  I cannot recommend an old Silverface Super Reverb or Vibrolux high enough.  (Make sure it has the aluminum drip edging around the grill cloth, these amps are nearly identical to their Blackface counterparts under the hood and are 1/2-1/3 the price!!!)  Stay away from the master volume and ultralinear Fenders and you'll be happy.  BTW I picked my  vintage Super Reverb up for $850 in very good condition...far less than a reissue!

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.

Re: Amp and speaker question....

I wouldn't worry about losing bass, as long as you're in a band that has a bass guitar player. You don't want to compete for that freqency... or so I've heard. That's one weird thing about amps is that they sound different in band practice... the whole issue of cutting through becomes a topic of attention. I digress.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

Re: Amp and speaker question....

10s will yield more detail and clarity than 12s, in general. 12s have a little more low end. However, low end can be lost in a band mix, if it doesn't have the clarity.

    Notice how many Bass Cabs are 410 with a Horn Tweeter?

    I too dig Fender styled amps. In fact, Kendrick has what you want. And they make them like Fender used to. That's where I'd look. Maybe a K Spot. But, there are other models they offer.

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

Re: Amp and speaker question....

In the late 90's, Gibson had an amp cabinet that had four speakers, 2x12 and 2x10... it looked funny but I always wondered how it sounded.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

Re: Amp and speaker question....

Look into a marshall bluesbreaker also.  I have heard that those amps and the Fender Twin use a very similar circuit and basically sound the same.  They are cheaper as far as I know and might come with reverb I'm not sure.  The Vibroluxe is a great amp I used to have one.  They are very clean but cranked they will bark as good as any amp I know.  You might loose bass but I never noticed, all I heard was good tone all the way around.  Another option is get a Hot Rod Deluxe.  They have a 1 speaker 40 watt amp.  If you must have 2 12's get a Hot Rod Deville but its 60 watts.  You can also get a extention cab to equal 2 12's.

Re: Amp and speaker question....

AD3THREE wrote:

Look into a marshall bluesbreaker also.  I have heard that those amps and the Fender Twin use a very similar circuit and basically sound the same.  They are cheaper as far as I know and might come with reverb I'm not sure.  The Vibroluxe is a great amp I used to have one.

I have a Bluesbreaker clone (Ceriatone) and it's definitely one of my favourites. BTW, it's based on the Bassman not the Twin, so you'd get a Fender Bassman with 2x12 speakers. It also uses KT66 tubes as opposed to Fender's 6L6s. Teh Bluesbreaker doesn't come with Reverb but with Tremolo (which I hardly ever use). I use a Holy Grail in front of the amp without any problems at all. It's basically a JTM-45, hence quite clean so you will need 1 or 2 OD pedals. I use a Fulldrive II and TS808. Combining these you get the whole range from very clean to light crunch to singing overdrive.

I also have the Fender Vibrolux (the new CVR model) and, while being quite a decent amp, it pales in comparison.

I also have a silverface Twin, a JCM800, Ceriatone's Dumble clone (OTS) and what not... But I always go back to the Bluesbreaker. Simple amp and great tone for Rock and Blues. The offical name of the amp is 1962 JTM-45 but it has its nickname for a reason.

BTW: If you try one out, stay away from the Marshall reissue model. It's got the wrong tubes, wrong cab dimensions, has solid state rectifier (I think), PCB board, the usual cost saving compromises... I don't work for Ceriatone (but I'm a happy customer), so their clone is an option, or Metro amps if you're based in the States.

Re: Amp and speaker question....

I was only going by what I read in a Vintage guitar mag one time.  Your totally Right JTM45 is a bassman circuit, but they said that bluesbreaker sounds very much like a Fender Twin.  I've never had the option to play either so so I'm going to go out and say our friend Bluesbreaker is the guy that knows what he's talking about.  KT66 tubes sound way cooler then 6l6 to me but thats mostly because they don't sound like everything else.  Now days its EL34 or 6L6 it seems, so it would be nice to venture out to uncharted terrain with a KT66.

Bluesbreaker wrote:
AD3THREE wrote:

Look into a marshall bluesbreaker also.  I have heard that those amps and the Fender Twin use a very similar circuit and basically sound the same.  They are cheaper as far as I know and might come with reverb I'm not sure.  The Vibroluxe is a great amp I used to have one.

I have a Bluesbreaker clone (Ceriatone) and it's definitely one of my favourites. BTW, it's based on the Bassman not the Twin, so you'd get a Fender Bassman with 2x12 speakers. It also uses KT66 tubes as opposed to Fender's 6L6s. Teh Bluesbreaker doesn't come with Reverb but with Tremolo (which I hardly ever use). I use a Holy Grail in front of the amp without any problems at all. It's basically a JTM-45, hence quite clean so you will need 1 or 2 OD pedals. I use a Fulldrive II and TS808. Combining these you get the whole range from very clean to light crunch to singing overdrive.

I also have the Fender Vibrolux (the new CVR model) and, while being quite a decent amp, it pales in comparison.

I also have a silverface Twin, a JCM800, Ceriatone's Dumble clone (OTS) and what not... But I always go back to the Bluesbreaker. Simple amp and great tone for Rock and Blues. The offical name of the amp is 1962 JTM-45 but it has its nickname for a reason.

BTW: If you try one out, stay away from the Marshall reissue model. It's got the wrong tubes, wrong cab dimensions, has solid state rectifier (I think), PCB board, the usual cost saving compromises... I don't work for Ceriatone (but I'm a happy customer), so their clone is an option, or Metro amps if you're based in the States.

Re: Amp and speaker question....

Thanks for all of the suggestions!!!

I have been stuck between getting a vintage amp or new..plus how many watts is enough for small venues/bars...40?...30?...22?...15?....

I have half the people I know tell me that 15 is enough...others say atleast 30...my bass player/guitar teacher says my AC15 is more than powerful enough for any stage around here...he's been playing for 40 years....my lead guitarist has a vintage 1965 40 watt Pro Reverb...too many options and not enough money...LOL


Can any one help me with my so call fear?....I have an issue with amps with "gain" controls...but I don't know why.  and if it has both Gain and master volume it turns me off before I even play it.  I don't even give it a shot...i guess it was more of a bad experience control-wise with a pitiful solidstate Marshall that keeps me away...

your thoughts would be greatly appreciated so I can end this GAS soon!!!

2009 Gibson Les Paul 1958 VOS (with black plastic)
2008 Gibson Les Paul Traditional Goldtop (with the cream plastic from the 58RI)
> Marshall Bluesbreaker 2 pedal >Boss sd-1> DD3 > Vox Ac15cc1

Re: Amp and speaker question....

Honestly man for what you are looking for (bluesy Fender cleans/breakup, reverb, cheap, etc.) a used Silverface Fender will get there in spades.  I turned my nose to them in the past many times because of a HORRENDOUS master volume Twin Reverb but if you can find one without the master volume they are SWEEET.  I will do a demo of mine if you are interested.  I would have to search far and wide to find a boutique amp that does what my '68 Super does better.  Average going price right now is between $700-$1200 depending on originality and condition.  I bought mine on The Gear Page because you can get some KILLER deals on there from actual tone freaks not Ebay businessmen.  I remember there being an old Silverface Deluxe Reverb for something like $500 locally that I might need to pick up...

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.

Re: Amp and speaker question....

Yeah, a SF Super is a sweet amp!

    Wattage is dependant on Make/Model as many makers exaggerate while others are modest in how they report the wattage.

i.e. 18 Watt Budda Twinmaster is LOUD, and will hang with just about any drummer, and a larger band.
      30 Watt Peavey Classic, not as loud.

    *No dig on the Peavey here, as I REALLY like them. This is just to point out the wattage ratings aspect.

    So, you need to determine if you want the amp to be clean at high volumes, or "cleanish" with some grit. Also, there are ways of using your guitar's volume controls and a nice Boost Pedal to get a lot of tonal variety.

    Sounds like you may know a few other guitarists in your area? Maybe they will let you come to their practice(s) and try their amps out? Or, let you sit in for a tune or two, to check them out?

    Also, go listen to the best bands around, and pay attention. Between sets, the guitarists who sound the best to you, will probably be glad to tell you what they play, and why. Most players are friendly. Especially if you slather them with praise! "Oh Man! YOU are sooo awesome! What kind of amp is that?" wink



    And one thing I'd consider is Reverb. Do you really want it? I find that Reverb can make your sound indistinct and get you lost in the mix, when playing in larger rooms. I much prefer a slight Echo, myself.
    But, that is just preference, I suppose. I would definately explore what the better sounding playes in your area are using, and how they are using it. How is probably more important.
    Reverb? Okay, does it need to be built into the amp? I've heard a tiny little Alesis MicroVerb sound incredible through an effects loop.
    Yeah, I dig vintage Fender Verb. But, Digital Verb is also something I love. Different, but not lesser IMO.

    I find many players (I have done this myself, in the past) long for a certain piece of "Vintage" gear, only to finally get it and realize it only does 1 thing. It may be a great thing. But, it can quickly be so limiting that you find yourself spending lots of time, energy and $$$ trying to get it to do more. Mods, extra Pedals, new PUs, etc. On and on.

    Again, go listen to at least 5 or 6 of the most popular bands you can, that play similar musics. Ask a lot of questions! You'll probably find a lot of helpful players out there.

    And lastly, if you play with a P.A., you can use a smaller amp and a good Microphone to run it through the P.A. Lots of wattage isn't necessarily preferred either.

    One of my favorite amps, is a Torres PrinceTone, Jr. Supposedly 20 Watts, but no where near as loud as the 18 Watt Budda. Sounds great though. And with a Mic in front of it, it can handle as big a room as it will ever need to. Killer Reverb too! cool

    P.S.
Budda also used to make a Verbmaster amp. Like my Twinmaster, but with Reverb. Not in production any more. But, you can find them for under a Grand used. And they are built like tanks! No reliability problems there.


    HTH

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

Re: Amp and speaker question....

You can get away with 15 watts at most small to mid sized venues and bigger places will have a PA so you can just mic it you would be fine, if you need a LOT of clean head room you might need more watts. I have never gigged with more than 50 Watts from my marshall or bassman an have been more than loud enough.

One more amp to look at Ampeg Reverbrocket, I have used my buddies reissue many many times and the clean and reverb on it are amazing, different flavor than a fender. An ampeg will be my next amp and they won't break the bank.

E

Re: Amp and speaker question....

I agree with Big E... i've been seeing more gigs lately with smaller watt tube amps and mic'd.

BUT since youre asking, I'd recommend the fender blues deville 212 if you can find em. Back in the mid 90's I got the Peavey classic (competitor amp) instead, but was really into the fender.

40 or 60 watts in a bar can be too much in a hurry for smaller PA's. a real problem me and mine as of late.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

Re: Amp and speaker question....

Big E wrote:

You can get away with 15 watts at most small to mid sized venues and bigger places will have a PA so you can just mic it you would be fine, if you need a LOT of clean head room you might need more watts. I have never gigged with more than 50 Watts from my marshall or bassman an have been more than loud enough.

One more amp to look at Ampeg Reverbrocket, I have used my buddies reissue many many times and the clean and reverb on it are amazing, different flavor than a fender. An ampeg will be my next amp and they won't break the bank.

E


Aren't they discontinued?  I've played the RI's and they are good.

Ben