Topic: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Not sure if I've posted this befroe, but I thought it might get some conversation going:



3rds. and Chord Construction 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the most useful ways I've found for organizing the fretboard, is using 3rds. to build Arpeggios starting from any note, at any point on the fretboard. And it's really not as overwhelming as I thought it would be.

I started using this type of organizational method quite a few years ago. And since I had to write this out for a couple of students recently, I thought I'd share it with you guys. 



------------------|------------------|--------------------|-----------------|-
------------------|------------------|--------------------|------8----------|-
------------------|------------------|------7-------------|---8------8--12--|-
------------------|-----7------------|---8-------8---12---|-----------------|-
---7--------------|--8-------8--12---|--------------------|-----------------|-
-8--------8--12---|------------------|--------------------|-----------------|-
M3rds. 

----7------------|------------------------------------------------------------
-8------8---12---|------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------|------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------|------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------|------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------|------------------------------------------------------------


----------------|---------------|---------------|-------------|---6---------|-
----------------|---------------|---------------|---7---------|-8----8--11--|-
----------------|---------------|---6-----------|-8-----8--11-|-------------|-
----------------|---6-----------|-8-----8--11---|-------------|-------------|-
----6-----------|-8-----8--11---|---------------|-------------|-------------|-
--8-----8--11---|---------------|---------------|-------------|-------------|-
m3rds. 

-------------|-------------|------------|-----------|-------------------------
-------------|-------------|------------|-----------|-------------------------
-------------|-------------|------------|-----------|-------------------------
-------------|-------------|------------|--------5--|-------------------------
-------------|---------10--|-----7--10--|-----7-----|-------------------------
--8--12--15--|--8--12------|--8---------|--8--------|-------------------------
M3rd. with m3rd. on top = Major Triad 

------------|-----------|-----------|--------3--|-----------------------------
------------|--------8--|-----5--8--|-----5-----|-----------------------------
--5--9--12--|--5--9-----|--5--------|--5--------|-----------------------------
------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------------------------
------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------------------------
------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------------------------


-------------|-------------|------------|-----------|-------------------------
-------------|-------------|------------|-----------|-------------------------
-------------|-------------|------------|-----------|-------------------------
-------------|-------------|------------|--------5--|-------------------------
-------------|---------10--|-----6--10--|-----6-----|-------------------------
--8--11--15--|--8--11------|--8---------|--8--------|-------------------------
m3rd. with M3rd. on top = Minor Triad 

------------|-----------|-----------|--------3--|-----------------------------
------------|--------8--|-----4--8--|-----4-----|-----------------------------
--5--8--12--|--5--8-----|--5--------|--5--------|-----------------------------
------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------------------------
------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------------------------
------------|-----------|-----------|-----------|-----------------------------


-----------------|------------------|-----------------|----------------|------
-----------------|------------------|-----------------|----------------|------
-----------------|------------------|-----------------|----------------|------
-----------------|------------------|-----------------|----------------|------
-----------------|-------------14---|---------10--14--|-----7--10--14--|------
--8--12--15--19--|--8--12--15-------|--8--12----------|--8-------------|------
M3rd. with m3rd with M3rd. on top = Major 7th. Chord 

--------------|--------------|--------------|---------------------------------
--------------|--------------|--------------|---------------------------------
--------------|--------------|-----------4--|---------------------------------
-----------9--|--------5--9--|--------5-----|---------------------------------
----7--10-----|-----7--------|-----7--------|---------------------------------
-8------------|--8-----------|--8-----------|--------------------------------- 

In the above Example, I used "M3rd." for a Major 3rd., and "m3rd." for a Minor 3rd.

Anybody else use this concept?

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

2 (edited by stratpaulguy86 2009-08-10 14:24:21)

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

It's all Greek to me! lol

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.

3 (edited by ZampraZ 2009-08-10 17:36:26)

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

stratpaulguy86 wrote:

It's all Greek to me! lol

Vouch big_smile

The way I go about organizing the fretboard is playing hours daily until it sticks big_smile

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Sorry it's hard to understand. It's a very useful Tool to have, so let's see if we can make it a little more digestible!

   Okay,  let's take a basic "C Chord" as an Example.

    A C Chord is one of the most basic types of Chords, called a Triad. Triads are Chords built from 3 Notes. Hence the name Triad.

    The 3 Notes in a C Triad are:

    C       E       and      G

    The C Note is the ROOT NOTE of the C Chord. As such, it gives the Chord it's Letter Name:  "C"

    To build the 4 most common Triad types, you use Tertian Harmony. Tertian Harmony just means Notes built from 3rds.

    There are 2 types of 3rds. to work with. The "MAJOR 3rd." (M3)  and the "MINOR 3rd." (m3).

    On the Fretboard, the Major 3rd. is a distance of 4 Frets. EX: C to E

    The Minor 3rd. is a distance of 3 Frets. EX: C to Eb

    With these 2 Simple Intervals (Distances), you can build any of the most common Triads.


    If you start from a ROOT NOTE (C in our Examples. But, it could be any Note.), you simply add the other 2 Notes (Each Note being either a M3 or a m3 away.) to finish building the desired Triad (Chord).

    So, it's kind of like Stacking 3rds.
   

The 4 most common Triads are:

1. Major

M3 + m3    (C + E + G)

2. Minor

m3 + M3   (C + Eb + G)

3. Augmented

M3 + M3   (C + E + G#)

4. Diminished

m3 + m3   (C + Eb + Gb)


Okay, this probably looks scary! yikes

But, I think you'll see how simple it is, once you learn the new Terminology.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them.

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

This is GREAT stuff... and I'm just on the verge of "getting it"
It all makes sense, but now I need to understand WHY... and after that... REMEMBER. cool

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Okay, I guess that wasn't any better! LOL:lol:

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

7 (edited by neuro 2009-08-11 22:23:49)

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

That is pretty nifty stuff!  The only thing I wonder is when you're actually building chords (or teaching them to a student), it becomes a little distracting when you add more "mathematical equations into it."  I would usually teach someone how to build chords just by introducing the intervals in relation to the Root Notes, such as C to E = Maj3rd, C to G = 5th, so that instead of using the Tertian Harmony and saying that "m3 + m3 = diminished," I would say you gotta have your minor 3rd, and to make it either diminished or augmented you just lower/raise your fifth.  To me, that's much easier to illustrate on the guitar with a student, so they are not thinking "hmmm, do I add a m3rd or Maj3rd to make this next interval a diminished? Oh and how many frets is that again?" 

Maybe I'm harking too much on it from a teaching standpoint because I guess you could say that this can be taught to more advanced students, but I just don't see as many students "getting it" right at first, and if and when they do, they eventually put together the big picture hopefully, which usually ends up being looked at the same way as if you (in my opinion) taught it from a Root/interval standpoint like I mentioned earlier.  I will note that this is only my experience and I haven't been teaching for that long, and I'm probably not an absolute expert on theory.  But I do really enjoy studying theory and I got a kick out of learning Tertian Harmony.  Heck, who knows, maybe I'm just not good at teaching it like you are, but I just wasn't able to get it to "click" with my students as easily as the other way.

Please correct me if I'm being a douche or sound like I'm missing the big picture!  I'm really not trying to be that way!

Nevertheless, good post!

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Good stuff here this all looks formilar from when I took guitar lessons, sadly I don't remember it all. I have a bunch of other theory questions related to scale and key maybe I will post them.

E

9 (edited by fuzzy wuzzy 2009-08-12 03:08:29)

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

neuro wrote:

That is pretty nifty stuff!  The only thing I wonder is when you're actually building chords (or teaching them to a student), it becomes a little distracting when you add more "mathematical equations into it."  I would usually teach someone how to build chords just by introducing the intervals in relation to the Root Notes, such as C to E = Maj3rd, C to G = 5th, so that instead of using the Tertian Harmony and saying that "m3 + m3 = diminished," I would say you gotta have your minor 3rd, and to make it either diminished or augmented you just lower/raise your fifth.  To me, that's much easier to illustrate on the guitar with a student, so they are not thinking "hmmm, do I add a m3rd or Maj3rd to make this next interval a diminished? Oh and how many frets is that again?" 

Maybe I'm harking too much on it from a teaching standpoint because I guess you could say that this can be taught to more advanced students, but I just don't see as many students "getting it" right at first, and if and when they do, they eventually put together the big picture hopefully, which usually ends up being looked at the same way as if you (in my opinion) taught it from a Root/interval standpoint like I mentioned earlier.  I will note that this is only my experience and I haven't been teaching for that long, and I'm probably not an absolute expert on theory.  But I do really enjoy studying theory and I got a kick out of learning Tertian Harmony.  Heck, who knows, maybe I'm just not good at teaching it like you are, but I just wasn't able to get it to "click" with my students as easily as the other way.

Please correct me if I'm being a douche or sound like I'm missing the big picture!  I'm really not trying to be that way!

Nevertheless, good post!

I agree with your statement about using intervals from the root note to teach beginners how chords are built, however what I think Buddah is doing here is more of an intermediate lesson not so much about chords per say but how to use all possabilities of triads (M3s + m3s) as a tool to expand ones knowledge of the fretboard. If anyone would practice those tabs what ultimately would happen is when soloing you will find yourself in different positions on the fretboard and we all know that is a good thing  espescially if it gets you out of your comfort zone.

my.02
fuzzy

Rock On and Keep the Faith

Jack Loves Patty Loves Joe

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Oh, Cool! Glad you guys dig it.

     And no, I don't think you are being a Douche! lol I appreciate your feedback. I certainly don't know everything. And I put it out there, so we could discuss it. All is well, Bro! (Sis?)

    And if there are any ways you'd alter it, cool. Maybe share those ideas? It's all good stuff, as long as it comes from a good intention.

    I've seen too many people get into "Ego-Wars" on internet Forums, before. And usually, it seems to be over forgetting to put a "Smiley" after something they typed. Or, just bad choice of wording, etc. But, there's never been any of that on this Forum, as far as what I hace seen. So, I would never think your Posts are coming from a negative place.
   

    Okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming! tongue

    And Big E, if you want to talk about stuff, just do it! I'm sure there are many here who would like to chime in and join the fun. I know I've learned a lot around this place, and I'm always looking for more.

    To quote the famous sage Ace Frehley:  "Rock On, Rock Soldiers!"

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Budda wrote:

    To quote the famous sage Ace Frehley:  "Rock On, Rock Soldiers!"

If anyone is interested, we could do a live webconference on guitar theory if we had more than two or three people. Budda can share his desktop, do a webcam, or even upload a ppt to a white board - if he'd be so kind to give us an introduction to basic guitar theory. I can supply the link for the webconference and everyone will have voicechat and text chat. I can even record the video and post it somewhere for file sharing. If nothing else we can have a great conversation.

how about it? hmm

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Wow, I guess some here are pretty interested in this stuff after all! Okay then, maybe we could have an ongoing "Theory/Technique Thread" going?

    The video conference is a cool idea, let me think about that.

    But for now, if anyone wants to discuss topics on Theory, etc., let's do it!

   
    Where should we start?

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

We can take one of our Major 7th. Chord Arpeggios, and Transform it to other 7th. Chord Types just by altering 1 Note at a time.

-|------------|------------|------------|-----------|-----------|-|-----------
-|------------|------------|------------|-----------|-----------|-|-----------
-|------------|------------|------------|-----------|-----------|-|-----------
-|---------9--|---------8--|---------8--|--------8--|--------7--|-|-----------
-|----7-10----|----7-10----|----6-10----|----6-9----|----6-9----|-|-----------
-|--8---------|--8---------|--8---------|--8--------|--8--------|-|-----------
 .....CM7..........C7...........Cm7..........Cm7b5.......Cdim.7               

And here we can see how taking any of our Arpeggio Forms across different String Sets, is also a simple process.

-|------------|-----------|-------------|--------10--|-|----------------------
-|------------|-----------|---------10--|---8-11-----|-|----------------------
-|------------|--------9--|----7-10-----|-8----------|-|----------------------
-|---------9--|---7-10----|--8----------|------------|-|----------------------
-|----7-10----|-8---------|-------------|------------|-|----------------------
-|--8---------|-----------|-------------|------------|-|----------------------
  ....CM7.......FM7..........BbM7..........EbM7                               

Below, I've taken a couple of 7th. Chord Forms and used them to play over a V7  IV7  I7 Progression.

-|------5-8p5---------3-6p3---------3v--|----------------------------|-|------
-|----7-------7-----5-------5-----------|--6p3--------------------8--|-|------
-|--7-----------7\5-----------5p3h4-----|------4---------------------|-|------
-|--------------------------------------|--------5p3----------5v-----|-|------
-|--------------------------------------|------------5-2-------------|-|------
-|--------------------------------------|----------------3-/7--------|-|------
  ..D7..............C7.........G7.........                                    

Give it a try. It can be a lot of fun, working out a few "Shapes" and playing around with them.

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Budda wrote:
-|------------|------------|------------|-----------|-----------|-|-----------
-|------------|------------|------------|-----------|-----------|-|-----------
-|------------|------------|------------|-----------|-----------|-|-----------
-|---------9--|---------8--|---------8--|--------8--|--------7--|-|-----------
-|----7-10----|----7-10----|----6-10----|----6-9----|----6-9----|-|-----------
-|--8---------|--8---------|--8---------|--8--------|--8--------|-|-----------
 .....CM7..........C7...........Cm7..........Cm7b5.......Cdim.7               

The first is a Cmaj, no CM7 (for C major 7 ?) Never heard it as an official description...
Cmaj = Base Tone, major third, fifth, #seventh

Here are my tabbed songs by "Smokin' Joe": http://www.jbonamassa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7236
I LIKE MUSIC! big_smile big_smile big_smile

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

CM7 is just another way of writing C Major Seventh, or Cmaj7, or an Arpeggio (in this case) containing the Notes C  E  G  B.
    Same thing, just a different way it'll be written/printed in Scores and Transcriptions.

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Anybody tried actually working with this stuff yet?

Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Okay, I'll add one more thing for everybody to chew on:

-|-----------|-----------|------------|-------------|---------------|---------
-|------3-7--|------5-8--|------7-10--|-------8-12--|--------10-13--|---------
-|----4------|----5------|----7-------|-----9-------|-----11--------|---------
-|--5--------|--7--------|--9---------|--10---------|--12-----------|---------
-|-----------|-----------|------------|-------------|---------------|---------
-|-----------|-----------|------------|-------------|---------------|---------
    GM7       Am7          Bm7          CM7           D7                      

-|---------------|---------------|---------------|-|--------------------------
-|--------12-15--|--------13-17--|--------15-19--|-|--------------------------
-|-----12--------|-----14--------|-----16--------|-|--------------------------
-|--14-----------|--16-----------|--17-----------|-|--------------------------
-|---------------|---------------|---------------|-|--------------------------
-|---------------|---------------|---------------|-|--------------------------
    Em7             F#m7b5          GM7                                       

-|-----------|-------------|-----------|--------10-14--|-|--------------------
-|-----------|-------------|------3-7--|-----12--------|-|--------------------
-|-----------|-------7-11--|----4------|--12-----------|-|--------------------
-|------0-4--|-----9-------|--5--------|---------------|-|--------------------
-|----2------|--10---------|-----------|---------------|-|--------------------
-|--3--------|-------------|-----------|---------------|-|--------------------
    GM7    Same "Form" moved across different String-Sets.                    

-|--------10-14-10-------------------------------------2--|-|-----------------
-|-----12----------12------------------7-3-------------3--|-|-----------------
-|--12----------------12-11-7--------7-----4-----------0--|-|-----------------
-|----------------------------9----9---------5-4-0-----0--|-|-----------------
-|------------------------------10-----------------2---x--|-|-----------------
-|---------------------------------------------------3-3--|-|-----------------
   Connecting this Form along the Neck.                                       

-|----------5-8-5--------------------|-|--------------------------------------
-|------3-7-------7------------------|-|--------------------------------------
-|----4-------------7-4--------------|-|--------------------------------------
-|--5-------------------5-------5-9--|-|--------------------------------------
-|------------------------7---7------|-|--------------------------------------
-|--------------------------8--------|-|--------------------------------------
   Things get interesting, when you connect different Arpeggios.              

-|-------------------------------------------------10-12-14p10----15p12-------
-|-----3-7/8-5---------7-10/12-8------------10-13b-------------10-------------
-|---4---------5-----7-----------9-------11-----------------------------------
-|-5-------------7/9---------------10/12--------------------------------------
-|----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-|----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                              

-----17p14----20v--|-|--------------------------------------------------------
--13-------15------|-|--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------|-|--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------|-|--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------|-|--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------|-|--------------------------------------------------------
Early 80's 1957 U.S. Vintage Reissue Stratocaster (Surf Green)-Warmouth Soloist  Pearly Gates Neck, Pearly Gates Bridge- Larrivee D-03 (Mahogany/ Spruce)
Carmen Ghia Head- Marshall 112 Cab W/G12H 30  or  Custom 4 X 6v6 Head  or  Budda Twinmaster Plus Head-Traynor 212 Cab w/Eminence Texas Heats. 
Mo'D-Eternity-Blues Pro- Timmy-BYOC Chorus/Vibrato- TC SCF- Korg DT 10 Pedal Tuner

18 (edited by ZampraZ 2009-08-27 21:46:58)

Re: 3rds. and Chord Construction

Damn this gives me a migrane x2...

Could you break it down to a retard level? I really don't understand the purpose causing lack of motivation, nor do I understand it...