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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Ian916 wrote:

guys you need to have a look at this on i-Player, - sorry for you non UK residents as I think it will only work in the UK, - as the BBC is funded by tax payers.  sad

It is a SUPERB documentary on the very dangerous years of GP racing and how the likes of Jackie Stewart campaigned to change things.

Well worth a hour of your time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 … ler_Years/

Warning there is a harrowing clip right at the end, - nothing gruesome but quite emotional to see a David Purley desperately trying to save a Roger Williamson's life.

Thanks for that Ian, at first i thought i'd seen it before ..... but no.
  Brings everything into prospective doesn't it ? I remember the Roger Williamson accident ..... David Purley..... dreadful ! ...... and the race just continued...

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Had the pleasure of getting to know David Purley a little as he struggled to stay in F1 in the '70's. I was standing by the bank in Silverstone in '77 when he ploughed into it in his own LEC F1 car. Broke pretty much everything from the waist down. I think it is still in the Guiness Book of Records for the shortest distance of deceleration or something.

Anyway he came back from that to race again competitively in an old Shadow F1 car in the National Championships. I was doing a course at Brands at the time to get my competition licence. He gave me a memorable ride around the GP loop in a Chevron Sports car.

In the those 5 or 6 laps I realised I could never do what he could do and although I got the licence I never pursued it as I thought I would.

He was a thoroughly nice man, but addicted to dangerous sports. I was shocked when he was killed in a flying accident, but not surprised. Some just have to push the envelope.

But on F1, yes modern drivers owe a massive debt to Jackie Stewart. But even after the lessons of Williamsons death were learnt it didn't stop it happening again. They got better safety at the races but forgot about having them when they tested.

Elio de Angelis died in 1986 at Paul Ricard when his car landed upside during a testing accident. Alain Prost stopped to help but there were NO marshals on hand to right the car. De Angelis had survived the accident but succumbed to his injuries as a result of being trapped in the car. It took 30 minutes for the helicopter to arrive, as it hadn't been booked for the test.

He was driving for Bernie Ecclestone at the time.

Yes, the drivers of today should thank their lucky stars that people like Stewart and Niki Lauda spoke out and acted to improve safety for F1 events,

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Couldn't agree more with everything that's been said. After all the hype and the disappoinment of the two week delay to the start of the season Melbourne was such a predictable damp squib.

The most exciting part was the tussle between JB (that's Jenson Button not the other guy) and Massa but even that only underlined the futility of all the add-ons when it actually comes to creating overtaking opportunities.

The most interesting thing for me this season is going to be watching to see if Schumacher can actually make something of the Mercedes or if he's going to continue referring to the F1 book of excuses. Best quote of the weekend has to of come from Ross Brawn - 'We know the car is fast if we can only get all the parts working together'. Anyone know a good relationship counsellor? lol

LynB wrote:
hansamike wrote:

Well dunno about anyone else but Melbourne left me feeling decidely 'underwhelmed'.

So underwhelmed that I decided to clean the inside windows of my lounge half way through  sad .  We know the first race of the season is a testing ground for the teams but with all the fanfare about the return of KERS and adjustable rear wings you would've thought there'd be a bit more overtaking.  Guess though they have to preserve engines and gearboxes as best they can.  The most excitement was seeing Jenson Button trying to pass Massa who really knew how to make that Ferrari wide on the track but then getting penalised with a pit lane drive through for going off line and overtaking. 

Nonetheless the drivers now have a few more buttons to press so they're slowly becoming more like drivers again as opposed to monkeys in a cockpit where everything was done for them.

My hat goes off to two drivers this weekend: Petrov in a Renault who thoroughly deserved his place after a solid qualifying and race, and the new Scottish boy Paul di Resta who showed a few more experienced racers just what a Force India is capable of.  Who would have thought Force India would have more points than Mercedes!

Malaysia and the Sepang circuit anyone?

Ho'way the lads!

148 (edited by RickB 2011-03-29 17:24:06)

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

The link predictably didn't work over here, but I have seen that before.  yikes All the attempts to make overtaking easier have been for naught so far. Over here in the USAC Champ series that went defunt and merged with Indy, they tried push to pass with a limited amount of overboost allowed with a total time per race limit. That didn't work either since everyone used it defensively to prevent passing. Course design has to come in somewhere to give the superior drivers the room to use their skills.
Rick

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

hansamike wrote:

Yes, the drivers of today should thank their lucky stars that people like Stewart and Niki Lauda spoke out and acted to improve safety for F1 events,

Absolutely.  Also the tragic events of the Imola weekend in 1994 with the untimely deaths of Roland Ratzenburger and Ayrton Senna contributed massively to a greater awareness of safety and led to the re-forming, I believe, of the Grand Prix Drivers Association where the views of the guys who actually drive the cars count.

Happily we haven't seen another death in F1 since those days, and long may it continue to stay that way.

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

I agree Lyn, but it is interesting that even today with all that they know they opt to include a development that has the potential to create dangerous situations.

The new rear wing developments are designed to (artificially) create overtaking possibilities. As we saw with JB and Massa the Ferraris KERS system provided enough extra oomph out of the corners to negate the potential 'open' rear wing use Button had available. That and the layout of the track conspired to keep him behind what was a slower car.

However, that was a race situation so all well and good - but more on that later.

But the use of the rear wing actuators was permitted in practice, where no actual overtaking, per se, is necessary. The 'open' creates a huge boost in overall sped through increased aerodynamic efficiency. In practice there are a lot of cars on the circuit, some at qualifying speed, some preparing to qualify, some cruising back to the pits. Allowing use of the wing in practice creates a huge differential in speeds betweens cars. I mean, the HRT's were already 9 seconds slower! One false move in the braking zone and there is even greater potential for a huge accident.

Think back to '81, Zolder, Gilles Villenueve flat out in qualifying coming across a cruising Jochen Mass. A split second moment of indecision and one of the greatest talents ever in the sport dead.

I still can't find any adequate reason why it is being allowed. Adrian Sutil almost demonstrated one aspect of it in practice when he engaged it in practice too quickly and found himself spinning down the main straight! Mark my words, a failure in this system at some point could have some catastrophic results for someone.

Returning to the Button/Massa topic, Jenson felt he was forced to use the escape road to avoid an 'avoidable' accident. He was past Massa going into the left hander sufficiently to be on the inside for the right hander. Massa gave no room whatsoever and Button did what he had to do.

But how is this for sportsmanship? Button asked the team whether he had to give the place back. The team asked him to wait while they conferred with race director Charlie Whiting. However, Ferrari immediately chose to pit Massa knowing that by doing so Button couldn't return the place and would recieve a penalty, thus allowing Alonso's Ferrari through without having to overtake Button, who was clearly quicker.

It was sharp practice by Ferrari, sharply executed. Not sporting by any means but fully allowable under the rules. So, in fact, McLaren and Button were doubly penalised.

Maybe even Mclaren were further punished by the failure of the Stewards to apply consistent rulings. OK everybody saw that Vettel was clearer quicker than Button on newer rubber and would have got the place at some point. But, he chose to overtake Button on the outside and clearly went completely off the track to do it. This isn't allowed and shouldn't be. An advantage was gained and Vettel should have, in theory recieved the same punishment as Button - a drive through penalty. He didn't. It could be levelled retrospectively if McLaren appeal but they probably won't.

I don't want the races to be decided by the stewards or officials after the event. We want these guys to race after all. But if there is one thing Red Bull don't need right now it is help from the officials to be even quicker than they are!

OK rant over......................

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

sorry of you outside of the UK could not see the documentary, it really is superb. Whilst watching it did raise a thought though....Have the improvements in safety nullified the racing spectacle? Not suggesting for one minute that we go back to those days but something is clearly lacking in F1 today, as it is also possibly becoming in the premier class of bike racing. Although the massive difference between the two is vehicle width in that whilst there is only one line around most circuits a bike can go off of it easier and pass.

The most interesting form of racing (bike) is Moto2 where a standard engine is used across the field, - 35 plus starting on the grid and it is close racing. Sadly Shoya Tomizawa was killed last year as a result of that close racing, - an accident that were not for the closeness of the riders around him he probably would have survived.

I cannot help but think that F1 is ruled by the sponsorship dollar or pound or whatever, - close racing is not high enough on the agenda. Time for Bernie to move on.

My YouTube channel with plenty of my Joe's videos dating from 2009 inc his first Hammersmith Odeon ones:
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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

If I’m honest I love F1, literally everything about it which I study and digest in great detail, except – the races!

There is a certain predictability about it which frustrates me. The best will always be the best because they get the most money and can afford to do the best job. That should in no way undermine what Red Bull have achieved since taking over the Jaguar team those years ago.

Yes Dieter Mateschitz’s money allowed it to ‘buy in’ Adrian Newey and his brilliance (and a lot of very hard work) has earned them with the success they now enjoy at the very front of the field.

But it is as much a constructors championship as a drivers championship, and the politics and polemics of the sport play as great a role as the racing (although I also love the intrigue of that too).

So what is my utopian F1 view? You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. It will and maybe should always be technically led sport, so how to create some sort of level playing field.

So here it is. Before the new teams came in last year Torro Rosso were in 2009 almost only 1.5 seconds behind the pole position in qualifying. It is conceivable that the new teams will close on that gap over the next 2 seasons, quicker if the world economy improves and more money comes into the sport.

So Mikes F1 Championships goes out to 13 teams, 26 drivers over 26 races. The drivers are all contracted to F1 Inc and receive payments based on their performance and status. The drivers will drive a different car at each race. Not sure how to allocate that yet. Could be the champion has to drive worst car from the previous season at the first race and so on down the order, but that might not be so bad. Imagine if you were champion and had got the Brawn in 2009!

The teams battle it out car against car, the vagaries of the results dependant on who you have sitting in it. I mean, this year for instance, I reckon Schumacher still could put the RB7 on pole, but could he do it if he only sat in it on the Friday. Dunno, but for sure he would love to find out! And so would we!!

Daft idea, but it would save the teams a lot of money paying pampered stars. Their art would be in understanding who they would be getting at the next race and what they might like to have in terms of performance. Maybe in the intervening 2 weeks the drivers could work with the teams in simulations to enhance and maximise the experience for both team and driver.

Mad idea of course, but that is how desperate one becomes sometimes. All that said, I’m sure it will be a good season and I will for sure enjoy the off circuit shenanigans just like I always do, and marvel at the ingenuity of the people involved and shake my head at the futility of it all.

I mean KERS. Millions and squillions of dollars for 0.3 seconds per lap. Plain daft. And now I must get on with some paying work and stop writing about this silly sport.

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

hansamike wrote:

So what is my utopian F1 view? You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. It will and maybe should always be technically led sport, so how to create some sort of level playing field.

So here it is. Before the new teams came in last year Torro Rosso were in 2009 almost only 1.5 seconds behind the pole position in qualifying. It is conceivable that the new teams will close on that gap over the next 2 seasons, quicker if the world economy improves and more money comes into the sport.

So Mikes F1 Championships goes out to 13 teams, 26 drivers over 26 races. The drivers are all contracted to F1 Inc and receive payments based on their performance and status. The drivers will drive a different car at each race. Not sure how to allocate that yet. Could be the champion has to drive worst car from the previous season at the first race and so on down the order, but that might not be so bad. Imagine if you were champion and had got the Brawn in 2009!

The teams battle it out car against car, the vagaries of the results dependant on who you have sitting in it. I mean, this year for instance, I reckon Schumacher still could put the RB7 on pole, but could he do it if he only sat in it on the Friday. Dunno, but for sure he would love to find out! And so would we!!

I've often wondered too how much of a race win is down to the car and how much to the skills of the driver.  If you put Vettel into a HRT (that abbreviation always makes me smile) would you get within 107% of his time in the Red Bull?  I dunno. 

Years ago I had vaguely the same idea as you about injecting some excitement and less predictability in the sport.  Unfortunately the idea of putting any old driver into any old car is riddled with problems not least because the confined space of the cockpit is tailor made to each individual driver so what would suit lanky Mark Webber wouldn't be any good for his team mate.  Then you have the problem of sponsorship on the cars which may or may not match the individual sponsors .... and so it goes on.  And you'll never get Ferrari to agree for anyone other than their contracted drivers to race their car. 

I agree totally about KERS mostly because I don't understand it and I don't see the relevance in a road car.  Then next year they're bringing back turbos with a smaller engine!

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Ian916 wrote:

Have the improvements in safety nullified the racing spectacle?

The short answer, is yes! Motor sport, two or four wheeled, is first a battle between man and machine, a gladiatorial experience, primeval  even.

Bernie Ecclestone was asked on a BBC 5 Live show recently, what was the main reason why people went to see an F1 race.... the popular answer came back was... the noise of the cars!

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155

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

=Brack Bernie Ecclestone was asked on a BBC 5 Live show recently, what was the main reason why people went to see an F1 race.... the popular answer came back was... the noise of the cars!

You may think he's joking but that's actually one of the reasons I LOVE going to watch the sport live.  The first time I went to Silverstone for practice day back in the 80s most cars were either V8s or V10s.  However, the Ferraris had the first V12 engines and the sound of them going round the track was exquisite!  Been a Ferrari fan ever since  smile

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

LynB wrote:
hansamike wrote:

I've often wondered too how much of a race win is down to the car and how much to the skills of the driver.  If you put Vettel into a HRT (that abbreviation always makes me smile) would you get within 107% of his time in the Red Bull?  I dunno. 

Years ago I had vaguely the same idea as you about injecting some excitement and less predictability in the sport.  Unfortunately the idea of putting any old driver into any old car is riddled with problems not least because the confined space of the cockpit is tailor made to each individual driver so what would suit lanky Mark Webber wouldn't be any good for his team mate.  Then you have the problem of sponsorship on the cars which may or may not match the individual sponsors .... and so it goes on.  And you'll never get Ferrari to agree for anyone other than their contracted drivers to race their car. 

I agree totally about KERS mostly because I don't understand it and I don't see the relevance in a road car.  Then next year they're bringing back turbos with a smaller engine!

Would Vettel in a HRT get within 107% of his current time? No. But Vettel in an HRT in 2 years time? Yes.

That golden era of F1 back in the '70's? If you look at the grids then sometimes there more than 15 seconds between the pole and last place! 2 years ago the grid was so close it was as competitive as it had ever been, but the racing was rubbish, because it was so tight but impossible to overtake.

In my utopian world, the rules of car design would be based around a monocoque size far in excess of what they currently build. As long as everyone has to do it, it doesn't matter. This aspect would only affect areodynamic criticality, and who cares about that? Newey would leave the sport of course, but who cares about that either?

So everyone would fit and it would be safer because any extra room could and should be used for extra driver protection.

Sponsors. They are signing up to F1 Inc. They get what they pay for and that is space on the car of their choice with the team of their choice. The drivers get to sell their overall space and can keep the revenue they generate. Sponsor conflict would solved by the driver having to remove logos when in a rival sponsored car.

Ferrari. Everyone seems to think the sport can't live without them. Totally wrong. Truth is they can't live without the sport. Without F1 they are just another sports car manufacturer, albeit a very well known one. F1 would do very nicely thank you. They daren't give it up because getting back into would be too dificult and costly. They should have their bluff called. They would bottle it and the Italian media would crucify them.

KERS is about the one thing that DOES have relevance in a road car. All that energy being lost when braking, and energy being used when accelerating. In a road car that has enormous potential for more economic and environmentally friendlier driving.

Climate control systems being powered by KERS as opposed to drinking more fuel. Start acceleration by KERS instead of your heavy right foot. Think of all the multitude on electrical systems on a modern and future car that could be powered by retained/reuseable energy.

No KERS has value to the road industry which is why Mercedes are so good at it and want to be good at it. By contrast, a trick wing has very little relevance. Road going dynamics are more driven by suspension, weight transfer, traction and braking stabilty. I doubt there ever be an F-duct on an Opel Astra!

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Very interesting points. I doubt F1 would ever become a "drivers" sport with equal cars. It is all about the manufacturers, engineering and rules bending. The only top level racing arenas that are driver oriented and dominated over here are Nascar and, to a lesser degree, Indy car, because the governing bodies require the engines and chassis to be near identical. Winning comes down to team tactics and driver skill 90% of the time. Notwithstanding the classic bias towards Nascar, this is the most difficult racing class in the world for drivers. If only they'd do more road courses, but the arena spectacle draws the paying public.
I see the change to smaller engines and turbos as nothing but bad for F1. Turbos lead to massive cheating because a small amount of boost advantage for just a bit gives a huge increase in power.  Turbos were abandoned here because of that after numerous attempts to control cheating failed. There is always a smarter engineer lurking. Perhaps the best thing would be to go green and electric. Think what that would do for the advancement of battery technology and motor design if the engineering talents of the F1 teams were brought to bear. Of course, there is the noise factor.... neutral
Rick

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

I too deplore moving back to the turbo engine, but thats the FIA forcing F1 to accept engine design that will eventually fall into this 'world' engine concept. Whereby any manufacturer with a 1600cc block will have the basis of a racing engine for any class, be it saloon, Rallying, F1 whatever.

Bonkers as far as F1 is concerned.

As far as F1 'green' credentials are concerned the current engine are just about some of the most fuel efficient motors you could find. Given the power output what they are achieving with todays motors the relative efficiency is incredible. They have 18 races and I think they only get a 10 engine allowance per driver, per season. So they have to last a race and then subsequent practice sessions. The reliabilty is impressive given how these units work.

But if it happens (small turbos) I don't think cheating will be an issue. They are currently all using a uniform 'spec' electronic management system that seems to work well. We'll get used to it because we have to I suppose.

As for electric cars, there is a new sports prototype series for them this year and probably a class at Le Mans. Its going to come, but I think endurance racing is where the focus for that should be just now.

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012

159 (edited by RickB 2011-03-30 11:13:46)

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

LynB wrote:

=Brack Bernie Ecclestone was asked on a BBC 5 Live show recently, what was the main reason why people went to see an F1 race.... the popular answer came back was... the noise of the cars!

You may think he's joking but that's actually one of the reasons I LOVE going to watch the sport live.  The first time I went to Silverstone for practice day back in the 80s most cars were either V8s or V10s.  However, the Ferraris had the first V12 engines and the sound of them going round the track was exquisite!  Been a Ferrari fan ever since  smile

No question Lyn. My son was engineer for a retired F1 Ferrari racing enthusiast (they race them here!) and called me on his cell. I answered and all I heard was that V12 at full song running down the straight at the big Fontana track as he held up the phone. cool  (Schumacher's '98) Glorious! No engine before or since has ever sounded so sweet IMHO. Best phone call ever!
BTW, it took 3 mechanics to start that car. 1 to man the external cranking motor, 1 to monitor the engine computer until oil and pneumatic pressure built up, 1 to give the driver the sign to actuate the ignition and pneumatics.

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

We all  love the sound of a finely tuned engine, but honestly, is there any better sound than that of a big block V8 in an American muscle car. I was passed the other day on the motorway by 2 Mustangs having a bit of fun and I was so enthralled I even turned the cd player off just so I could here them more clearly. We just don't get enough of that over here in England.

RickB wrote:
LynB wrote:

=Brack Bernie Ecclestone was asked on a BBC 5 Live show recently, what was the main reason why people went to see an F1 race.... the popular answer came back was... the noise of the cars!

You may think he's joking but that's actually one of the reasons I LOVE going to watch the sport live.  The first time I went to Silverstone for practice day back in the 80s most cars were either V8s or V10s.  However, the Ferraris had the first V12 engines and the sound of them going round the track was exquisite!  Been a Ferrari fan ever since  smile

No question Lyn. My son was engineer for a retired F1 Ferrari racing enthusiast (they race them here!) and called me on his cell. I answered and all I heard was that V12 at full song running down the straight at the big Fontana track as he held up the phone. cool  (Schumacher's '98) Glorious! No engine before or since has ever sounded so sweet IMHO. Best phone call ever!
BTW, it took 3 mechanics to start that car. 1 to man the external cranking motor, 1 to monitor the engine computer until oil and pneumatic pressure built up, 1 to give the driver the sign to actuate the ignition and pneumatics.

Ho'way the lads!

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

twotowers09 wrote:

We all  love the sound of a finely tuned engine, but honestly, is there any better sound than that of a big block V8 in an American muscle car. I was passed the other day on the motorway by 2 Mustangs having a bit of fun and I was so enthralled I even turned the cd player off just so I could here them more clearly. We just don't get enough of that over here in England.

You should have heard the sound my old Renault was making when it needed a new exhaust!  Now that's what I would call throaty!

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Nice thread,this-love all this stuff,missed two Silverstone F1 's in the last 23 years and loved them all.Missed last year and the return of The Demon Schuey,  Jenson's No 1 on the car,the new-er track layout....man,what a bummer watching on tv,great though the BBC's coverage is.Makes a great weekend!

Come on you Blades!