A Message For Joe (Page 2 of 3)

Someone posted a video of the Prague show and I watched it.. I can clearly hear that Joe’s voice was not as clear and strong as I have heard it; and this show was only a day or two before he cancelled his show due to laryngitis.

Let me be perfectly clear about Loud Volume vs Clarity of Sound I love loud music, I love loud music clear
But there comes a point when the balance of sound is not clear and becomes mud, there are times when the overall sound of many shows (not just Joe’s) that the venue is overpowered and the sound turns to mush.
This is what I think most of the posts we see about sound volume; the writers really mean sound clarity.

I have been on sound boards before and I still am on a sound board at a couple of church choirs (I know church music isn’t a rock concert) but I do have an understanding of sound reinforcement and clarity of sound.
Typically the sound person is in a place that they balance the sound from that spot; generally I rarely see a sound person moving around the venue
(I do move around to hear from different spots because the church sound board is in the worst spot of the church).

I did see a sound guy in Buffalo NY in May 2012 with a laptop show up around the 3rd song when I was in the balcony and the sound did get better for just a short time but they came during one of the quieter songs. As soon as the full band kicked in Joe was drowned out; not only his vocals but his guitar as well and it was only during a solo that the guitar cut through.
That is not an over volume of the ears but a sound balance problem.

Now my wife on the other hand; she can’t stand the volume of any thing over the #2 on the volume dial; hence if I go to a concert I go alone. Although it’s nice to enjoy something with someone (not just strangers seated around me) but at least I get to enjoy the concert in peace (re: no nagging).
I’m seeing Buddy Guy in April 2014 by myself and I will enjoy it and I suspect it will be loud as well.

Now how do I finish this post on a positive note????
Hmm.. let me think…
Joe is an amazing talent and at different venues pretty much every other night of the year.
As a crew member it’s a hard road to keep the pace of load-in; show; load-out; travel and each venue creates its very own challenge and I’m sure the crew (and band) attempt to do 110%
(I know I do when I stage manage a show).
That is the challenge (and enjoyment of live shows) you live off the adrenaline and hope to please everyone every time.

I hope I can someday see as many Joe shows as Rocket and Patty have.
Keep the faith and rock on Joe.

This seems to be an issue throughout music performance, I've seen - a big part of it is the specific venues. Small and large venues tend to be best for sound, its those in the middle that can get rough.

I've seen McCartney at Fenway, Clapton at the TD Garden and Aerosmith at Mansfield. All of them, perfect volume levels (sat at different places in each concert). When I saw JB at the Mint during Bluesmasters, which is really no bigger than your typical city bar/club venue, the volume was fine.

The most painful (volume wise) concerts I've ever been to were The Doobie Brothers, the Beach Boys and OAR. First two were at the Hampton Beach Casino Ballroom, last one at the Portland ME State Theater. Those are both medium size venues, and I think the acoustics of the rooms cause the sound to get trapped, as opposed to a large venue where the sound dissipates, or smaller venues where they just don't turn up as loud.

And as the legendary Greg Koch would say, rock n' rollers always feel the need to play at Pagan Rock Warlord volume levels.

Amen, Rick!  They always ruin the soft passages, seems like they wait until then to yell "Let's go Joe!" or something inane.  Just wish there were crowd control police.  These idiots don't have any idea they are in the presence of greatness.  Joe seems to take it in stride, he must be used to it, but if I were he I'd have a supply of Ninja stars to throw at them!

That must be so annoying - so far I've never experienced it in Europe, we all just sit in silent awe!

I personally find it not so appalling.  In this country, far better to have, sigh, in my opinion, an exuberantly drunk **** with intermittent obnoxiousness, than somebody who doesn't even show up.  We have to live with it here, a way of life really...how do we know if it doesn't inspire to a certain degree in actuality?  The problem is the line.  And different folks have differing ideas and ideals for where the line not to be crossed should be. 

Joe Bonamassa An Acoustic Evening In Vienna..guess what?  That was a noisy crowd, yet Kevin Shirley once again almost made them disappear...  Now, I didn't say the Vienna crowd (VIENNA!) was rude.  In fact, that seems like the ideal to myself.
Live European recordings / discs in my opinions are generally the best for when their audiences clearly infiltrate the performance with their interactions!

Doug, excellent post about clarity vs. loudness.  Of course, there is the argument to be made that increasing volume can (to a certain degree) increase clarity...of course that hypothesis has to be made on the basis of a decent balance to start  
Changing subjectivitease, I have to wonder about your church board setup...it can't be right up by organ pipes can it? Seen that! Did a US of A contractor do the install?
And Doug, you got right to the point about the specifics, given the Joe@80% Tweet and the proximity to the unfortunate cancellation.  Purposely burying the vocals somewhat could only be used for one night in an emergency...
It exacerbates the argumentative perception (not yours!).

Rock ON & Keep the Faith,
Rocket

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! "
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
"Everybody wants ta get inta the act!"
“Now, this isn’t your ordinary party crowd, here.  I mean, there are professionals in here.”

I have used audio tools at Joe shows and while mixes aren't entirely consistent (therefore, balance), the SPL levels are very reasonable on dBA scale...and quite consistent.

Rock ON & Keep the Faith Level Actually "Level,"
Rocket

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! "
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
"Everybody wants ta get inta the act!"
“Now, this isn’t your ordinary party crowd, here.  I mean, there are professionals in here.”

I'm not a sound engineer but I pretend to be one when I attend concerts. In my mind I am the best sound engineer in the room but nobody lets me near the knobs.

On one point, Line Array speakers are attenuated with a boost in the upper third of +3db to throw to the back of the room. Readings are taken in when setting up and tuning the room with EQ and can be fine tuned so the volume is evenly dispersed. I have sat in the balcony and the sound noticeably louder than the floor so maybe it isn't always adjusted to perfection but the sound production engineer who tunes the room knows what he is doing.

The middle third is attenuated flat and the lower third -3db so as not to blow the front of the house out of their seats. Again that is approximate and it can vary from room to room. So the balcony can have a 6db swing louder from the lower orchestra which is a noticeable difference so if you are near the front of the balcony you may find it too loud.. I don't like to make excuses for anybody because I feel there is no valid excuse for perfect sound every night not to be achieved or at least attempted. Sure there are excuses room to room. I have heard shows that I deemed too soft and I have seen shows that seemed too loud. There are in some venues SPL restrictions which I believe should not affect the individual instruments and voice perceived loudness just the over all show loudness.

As to the volume rising during the show or even a song the band plays with an extreme dynamic range. If you set it and forget it the band will be too loud at times and drown the vocals or even get excessively loud for that crescendos. Still the overall show is not just parting your hair with volume from start to finish it has loud and soft songs and parts of songs. It is however a blues rock concert not Harry Connick Jr. It is hard to limit that range without compression and then you lose the dynamics of the live show. 

There are a couple of distortions that can happen to the sound. One would be operator error where the gain is overdriveing and breaking up the signal that is being amplified the other is caused by the room which is a flutter distortion caused by phase cancellation of frequencies bouncing off hard surfaces. In some rooms that can be the ceiling. Especially older venues that had ceiling designed to reflect sound not deflect sound. Loud volumes will exaggerate that distortion. That is not the speakers distorting but your ear that perceives a flutter type sound. The seat in the next row or on the floor may not hear that distortion at all because it has to do with the reflected waves in the room.

I have seen many shows and have my own criticisms of some of those and had people proclaim that it was the best sounding show they have heard. Not everybody is a sound critic. I would say though that there are two things I want to hear. Joe's vocals and the guitar. If I can hear that I can forgive just about everything else.

This is the point that I've been trying to make all along - the reason the set didn't go down too well in Europe was in part due to the fact that for the vast majority of the set it was hard to make out Joe's vocals and guitar - irrespective of the venue, irrespective of the quality of the acoustics in those venues, irrespective of how tired/stressed the sound guys might or might not have been.  If you can't hear Joe's vocals and guitar, you're simply not getting what you went for and you're not going to enjoy the set that much.

And the whole issue about whether Joe's voice was OK in Prague is a complete red herring - there were the same complaints from the very beginning of the Europe tour at various different venues, when presumably his voice was ok. It wouldn't surprise me if he had problems later with his voice because he was trying to sing too hard to make himself heard after early complaints... because he's a great guy who really cares about his fans...

I still maintain that the problems were down to the choice of loud/rocky songs/arrangements and other people who were at those concerts agree with me...but for some reason, some people, who were not even there, just don't seem to want to accept that this might be the case...

From the feedback I've had from people at those concerts, the second biggest reason the set didn't go down too well is that Joe simply didn't play enough of the songs the fans wanted to hear...and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see how these two issues are inextricably bound together...