• From: East Lancashire, UK
  • Registered: 2011-06-24
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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

hansamike wrote:

But Snakes&Ladders, you don't debate. Thats just it. You just make statements based on your own personal bias.

Nothing wrong being a Ferrari fan boy. Most of us here would like, this year, to see Alonso and Ferrari win, if only for the variety, and as a reward for their efforts in maintaining a challenge with 'not one of their greatest cars'.

But there is no need to underpin your views with abusive language about other teams and drivers. We get it. But your personal view is just that, and not necessarily back up by the statistic, which lets face it, is how real results are judged.

Renault is the dominant engine in F1 this season with 8 victories, 8 second places and 7 thirds.

Mercedes have 7 victories 5 seconds and 4 thirds

Ferrari have just 3 victories but 8 seconds and 7 thirds.

As you say yourself Ferrari are still just ONE of the teams to be beaten, but they do make the job increasingly easier by being a team that is centric to ONE driver, so that should he underperform or go out there is no one else picking up victories as has Button or Webber. A team like Ferrari should have 2 drivers always capabale of winning and they don't have that since 2008.

Ferrari may be ahead of Mercedes in the constructors championship but there is still a race to go and the fat lady hasn't sung yet. The difference between Ferrari and a Mercedes powered team (McLaren) is only 14 points. That said I would like to see Alonso win the title which would see Ferrari finish second for sure.

Alonso / Hamilton - sure Alonso is the better, more complete driver. No question. Hamilton though is probably the faster, and likely will remain so, even after Alonso has stopped.

If you can take a crumb of comfort from losing a championship you (Ferrari) could have won just by beating Mercedes powered teams then please do so. But don't be blind to the fact that you are still just the first 'loser'

A good reply and I agree. I just didn't reply because of the tone of the so called 'debate.' Life is too short. big_smile

Come on the Blades (sorry Idolbone just had to borrow your line)

416 Reply by LynB

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

PSmith1946 wrote:

A good reply and I agree. I just didn't reply because of the tone of the so called 'debate.' Life is too short. big_smile

Me too.  And I'm a Ferrari fan ...

417 Reply by snakes&ladders (edited by snakes&ladders 2012-11-22 13:54:52)

  • From: Bermuda Triangle
  • Registered: 2009-09-18
  • Posts: 37

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

hansamike wrote:

But Snakes&Ladders, you don't debate. Thats just it. You just make statements based on your own personal bias.

Nothing wrong being a Ferrari fan boy. Most of us here would like, this year, to see Alonso and Ferrari win, if only for the variety, and as a reward for their efforts in maintaining a challenge with 'not one of their greatest cars'.

But there is no need to underpin your views with abusive language about other teams and drivers. We get it. But your personal view is just that, and not necessarily back up by the statistic, which lets face it, is how real results are judged.

Renault is the dominant engine in F1 this season with 8 victories, 8 second places and 7 thirds.

Mercedes have 7 victories 5 seconds and 4 thirds

Ferrari have just 3 victories but 8 seconds and 7 thirds.

As you say yourself Ferrari are still just ONE of the teams to be beaten, but they do make the job increasingly easier by being a team that is centric to ONE driver, so that should he underperform or go out there is no one else picking up victories as has Button or Webber. A team like Ferrari should have 2 drivers always capabale of winning and they don't have that since 2008.

Ferrari may be ahead of Mercedes in the constructors championship but there is still a race to go and the fat lady hasn't sung yet. The difference between Ferrari and a Mercedes powered team (McLaren) is only 14 points. That said I would like to see Alonso win the title which would see Ferrari finish second for sure.

Alonso / Hamilton - sure Alonso is the better, more complete driver. No question. Hamilton though is probably the faster, and likely will remain so, even after Alonso has stopped.

If you can take a crumb of comfort from losing a championship you (Ferrari) could have won just by beating Mercedes powered teams then please do so. But don't be blind to the fact that you are still just the first 'loser'

Wow, do I love this:):)!! I couldn't care less if your backside was beaten because I said the truth based on facts and not my opinions. Personal ops are used in other sports like soccer, heheh:). Having said this, at the end of the day, the only results that count (really count) are NOT this year's championship and who won which races against who didn't...it's the history of F1 that speaks to us...loud and clear:

By seasonSeason Constructor Engine Tyre Drivers[1] Poles Wins Podiums Fastest Laps Points[2] Margin (points)
1958  Vanwall Vanwall D Stirling Moss
Tony Brooks 5 6 9 3 48 8
1959  Cooper Climax D Jack Brabham*
Stirling Moss
Bruce McLaren 5 5 13 5 40 8
1960  Cooper Climax D Jack Brabham*
Bruce McLaren 4 6 14 5 48 14
1961  Ferrari Ferrari D Phil Hill*
Wolfgang von Trips 6 5 14 5 45 10
1962  BRM BRM D Graham Hill* 1 4 8 3 42 6
1963  Lotus Climax D Jim Clark* 7 7 9 6 54 18
1964  Ferrari Ferrari D John Surtees*
Lorenzo Bandini 2 3 10 2 45 3
1965  Lotus Climax D Jim Clark* 6 6 7 6 54 9
1966  Brabham Repco G Jack Brabham* 3 4 9 2 42 11
1967  Brabham Repco G Denny Hulme*
Jack Brabham 2 4 14 2 63 19
1968  Lotus Ford F Graham Hill*
Jo Siffert
Jim Clark
Jackie Oliver 5 5 9 5 62 13
1969  Matra Ford D Jackie Stewart*
Jean-Pierre Beltoise 2 6 10 6 66 17
1970  Lotus Ford F Jochen Rindt*
Emerson Fittipaldi
Graham Hill
John Miles 3 6 7 1 59 7
1971  Tyrrell Ford G Jackie Stewart*
François Cevert 6 7 11 4 73 37
1972  Lotus Ford F Emerson Fittipaldi* 3 5 8 4 61 10
1973  Lotus Ford G 1. Emerson Fittipaldi
2. Ronnie Peterson 10 7 15 7 92 10
1974  McLaren Ford G 5. Emerson Fittipaldi*
6. Denny Hulme
33. Mike Hailwood
(33). David Hobbs
(33). Jochen Mass 2 4 10 1 73 8
1975  Ferrari Ferrari G 11. Clay Regazzoni
12. Niki Lauda* 9 6 11 6 72.5 18.5
1976  Ferrari Ferrari G 1. Niki Lauda
2. Clay Regazzoni 4 6 13 7 83 9
1977  Ferrari Ferrari G 11. Niki Lauda*
12. Carlos Reutemann 2 4 16 3 95 33
1978  Lotus Ford G 5. Mario Andretti*
6. Ronnie Peterson 12 8 14 7 86 28
1979  Ferrari Ferrari M 11. Jody Scheckter*
12. Gilles Villeneuve 2 6 13 6 113 38
1980  Williams Ford G 27. Alan Jones*
28. Carlos Reutemann 3 6 18 5 120 54
1981  Williams Ford G 1. Alan Jones
2. Carlos Reutemann 2 4 13 7 95 34
1982  Ferrari Ferrari G 27. Gilles Villeneuve
28. Didier Pironi
(27). Patrick Tambay
(28). Mario Andretti 3 3 11 2 74 5
1983  Ferrari Ferrari G 27. Patrick Tambay
28. René Arnoux 8 4 12 3 89 10
1984  McLaren TAG M 7. Alain Prost
8. Niki Lauda* 3 12 18 8 143.5 86
1985  McLaren TAG G 1. Niki Lauda
2. Alain Prost*
(1). John Watson 2 6 12 6 90 8
1986  Williams Honda G 5. Nigel Mansell
6. Nelson Piquet 4 9 19 11 141 45
1987  Williams Honda G 5. Nigel Mansell
6. Nelson Piquet* 12 9 18 7 137 61
1988  McLaren Honda G 11. Alain Prost
12. Ayrton Senna* 15 15 25 10 199 134
1989  McLaren Honda G 1. Ayrton Senna
2. Alain Prost* 15 10 18 8 141 64
1990  McLaren Honda G 27. Ayrton Senna*
28. Gerhard Berger 12 6 18 5 121 11
1991  McLaren Honda G 1. Ayrton Senna*
2. Gerhard Berger 10 8 18 4 139 14
1992  Williams Renault G 5. Nigel Mansell*
6. Riccardo Patrese 15 10 21 11 164 65
1993  Williams Renault G 0. Damon Hill
2. Alain Prost* 15 10 22 10 168 84
1994  Williams Renault G 0. Damon Hill
2. Ayrton Senna
(2). David Coulthard
(2). Nigel Mansell 6 7 13 8 118 15
1995  Benetton Renault G 1. Michael Schumacher*
2. Johnny Herbert 4 11 15 8 137 25
1996  Williams Renault G 5. Damon Hill*
6. Jacques Villeneuve 12 12 21 11 175 105
1997  Williams Renault G 3. Jacques Villeneuve*
4. Heinz-Harald Frentzen 10 8 15 9 123 21
1998  McLaren Mercedes B 7. David Coulthard
8. Mika Häkkinen* 12 9 20 9 156 23
1999  Ferrari Ferrari B 3. Michael Schumacher
4. Eddie Irvine
(3). Mika Salo 3 6 17 6 128 4
2000  Ferrari Ferrari B 3. Michael Schumacher*
4. Rubens Barrichello 10 10 21 5 170 18
2001  Ferrari Ferrari B 1. Michael Schumacher*
2. Rubens Barrichello 11 9 24 3 179 77
2002  Ferrari Ferrari B 1. Michael Schumacher*
2. Rubens Barrichello 10 15 27 12 221 129
2003  Ferrari Ferrari B 1. Michael Schumacher*
2. Rubens Barrichello 8 8 16 8 158 14
2004  Ferrari Ferrari B 1. Michael Schumacher*
2. Rubens Barrichello 12 15 29 14 262 143
2005  Renault Renault M 5. Fernando Alonso*
6. Giancarlo Fisichella 7 8 18 3 191 9
2006  Renault Renault M 1. Fernando Alonso*
2. Giancarlo Fisichella 7 8 19 5 206 5
2007  Ferrari Ferrari B 5. Felipe Massa
6. Kimi Räikkönen* 11 9 22 11 204 103[3]
2008  Ferrari Ferrari B 1. Kimi Räikkönen
2. Felipe Massa 8 8 19 13 172 21
2009  Brawn Mercedes B 22. Jenson Button*
23. Rubens Barrichello 5 8 15 4 172 18.5
2010  Red Bull Renault B 5. Sebastian Vettel*
6. Mark Webber 15 9 20 6 498[4] 44
2011  Red Bull Renault P 1. Sebastian Vettel*
2. Mark Webber 18 12 28 10 650 153
2012  Red Bull Renault P 1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Mark Webber TBA TBA TBA TBA TBA TBA

As you can see (hoopefully without using biased elite eyes like the ones I noted in many posters up here), you will notice that:
a). Ferrari won 17 odd championships so far
b). Mercedes ONLY won 2 championships (and it powered the team ONLY!!)
c). The only team that could stand up to Ferrari was Lotus Cosworth and Renault (recently powering Red Bull:))
d). Ferrari ALWAYS won championships using BOTH Ferrari team AND engine:):)
e). McLaren won seriously when it started being powered by SERIOUS engines like Honda
...........and I could go on like this forever:):)!!!
These are the stats thet EXCLUSIVELY count, not ONE season's wins:):)

  • From: Norddeutschland
  • Registered: 2008-12-03
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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

...........and I could go on like this forever:):)!!!

But please don't 'cos its just DEAD boring.

If you are red through and through thats OK. I'm no team fan. I'm an F1 fan. Ferrari are part of that and I appreciate evrything they bring and have brought to the sport. But without the other teams and drivers they would be nothing, because then there would be no sport. They have to have someone to compete against and beat or there is no victory or triumph.

By simply dissing the other teams, Mercedes in particular, you do Ferrari a disservice. Because if everyone else other than Ferrari are rubbish then it isn't much of a triumph really. Mercedes haven't even competed in F1 as a constructor over the period you detail, so it isn't possible they could compete with Ferrari historically.

If Alonso were to somehow succeed this coming weekend then the best driver and arguably the best team, without the best car, would have won the drivers championship. That would be a sensational achievement. Worthy of Ferrari's heritage and meaning.

That they still have the chance, no matter how small, is partly due to Hamilton's (with mercedes engine) win helping to keep Alonso's chances further alive.

There is a bigger picture to see and it can't just be red.

I'll admit to finding it a bit disturbing that you even say you couldn't care less if you cause offence (by beating backsides), whilst in your other post you claim at one point 'no offence intended'.

What is it to be? Why is there a need to cause any offence and write posts which contain abusive comments about some of the participants in the sport.

Trolling them devalues the success Ferrari has or might have against them doesn't it?

Support your team. Broadcast their success, but can't it be done with an even hand?

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012

419 Reply by snakes&ladders (edited by snakes&ladders 2012-11-22 16:00:43)

  • From: Bermuda Triangle
  • Registered: 2009-09-18
  • Posts: 37

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

You have missed the point completely and the only boring poster here I see now is you...no offence of course:):)....proof of this? The fact that you didn't even reply to the stats...the REAL stats that count.....which I posted above (could that mean you don't get the spirit of F!??....who knows:):)). Of course F1 needs competition and that is what I like about F1 racing. The anti-Ferraris say that "Ferrari breaks an engine, it's because the caR'S A DUMP...and when Mercedes breaks an engine...oh it's only bad luck". THAT is what does no good for a team not what you said above about my post. Now let's come off it...and if this topic bores you so much, why read it?:):):):)
VIVA FERRARI AND F1 RACING:))

420 Reply by LynB

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

snakes&ladders wrote:

You have missed the point completely and the only boring poster here I see now is you...no offence of course:):)....proof of this? The fact that you didn't even reply to the stats...the REAL stats that count.....which I posted above (could that mean you don't get the spirit of F!??....who knows:):)). Of course F1 needs competition and that is what I like about F1 racing. The anti-Ferraris say that "Ferrari breaks an engine, it's because the caR'S A DUMP...and when Mercedes breaks an engine...oh it's only bad luck". THAT is what does no good for a team not what you said above about my post. Now let's come off it...and if this topic bores you so much, why read it?:):):):)
VIVA FERRARI AND F1 RACING:))

Hey snakie -
Read what Hansamike has said in his previous post and you'll see he's replied to the stats you posted. 

What is it about Mercedes that you hate so much?  I just don't get it.  I'm a Ferrari fan (since Nigel Mansell joined the team if you must know) but I can respect and appreciate the efforts of ALL the other teams.  I'm happy to applaud Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus etc etc because I have a love for F1, not a blinkered view about one marque.  I suggest you see the broader picture if you call yourself an F1 fan.

421 Reply by Brack

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

I'm going to staying out of this one, although i agree when Lyn used the word 'blinkered'.

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422 Reply by snakes&ladders (edited by snakes&ladders 2012-11-23 06:09:29)

  • From: Bermuda Triangle
  • Registered: 2009-09-18
  • Posts: 37

Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

LynB wrote:
snakes&ladders wrote:

You have missed the point completely and the only boring poster here I see now is you...no offence of course:):)....proof of this? The fact that you didn't even reply to the stats...the REAL stats that count.....which I posted above (could that mean you don't get the spirit of F!??....who knows:):)). Of course F1 needs competition and that is what I like about F1 racing. The anti-Ferraris say that "Ferrari breaks an engine, it's because the caR'S A DUMP...and when Mercedes breaks an engine...oh it's only bad luck". THAT is what does no good for a team not what you said above about my post. Now let's come off it...and if this topic bores you so much, why read it?:):):):)
VIVA FERRARI AND F1 RACING:))

Hey snakie -
Read what Hansamike has said in his previous post and you'll see he's replied to the stats you posted. 

What is it about Mercedes that you hate so much?  I just don't get it.  I'm a Ferrari fan (since Nigel Mansell joined the team if you must know) but I can respect and appreciate the efforts of ALL the other teams.  I'm happy to applaud Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus etc etc because I have a love for F1, not a blinkered view about one marque.  I suggest you see the broader picture if you call yourself an F1 fan.

I did read it in due time and I can safely say he didn't give a detailed breakdown reply...not one.....to the the stats I posted up there:):)! Who said I hate Mercedes....I drive Mercedes when I pick up clients in my PR / interpreter work nearly every day. They're good cars to drive...comfy all the way, but as for performance, I believe they still have to learn quite a bit from their testing in F1 racing (because that's why I follow F1 racing so much...you'll find lots of the solutions experimented on the track as options and accessories in everyday cars!!!!). This takes me back to my original point: what I dislike most are the Mercedes fans...they're the ones ready to knock Ferrari if it breaks an engine in the race and ALWAYS ready to give (silly) "technical" explanations as to why Mercedes engines break (ref. Hamilton's last engine failure!). THEY and anyone who supports this unfair criticism are the ones who are HIGHLY biased, not me!!:):). Having said this, most of you have called me a Ferrari fan in your various posts....I grew up with the passion for Ferrari, but I support teams like Red Bull (Renault), Sauber (Ferrari), Lotus (Renault) as well (if this is what you'd all like to know?!:)).

423 Reply by Brack

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Pit Stop Perfection - Courtesy of the BBC > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20396345

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  • From: Bermuda Triangle
  • Registered: 2009-09-18
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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Brack wrote:

Pit Stop Perfection - Courtesy of the BBC > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20396345

McLaren recorded the world's fastest Formula 1 pit stop during the German Grand Prix in July this year, with a stationary time of 2.31 seconds, while they changed Jenson Button's tyres

So what Brack??! Are you saying that is what makes the diff in F1 racing or are you deliberatley ignoring what MORE SERIOUS racing mags report as being fundamental in obtaining good results??? I think BBC had better stay out of F1 racing reporting and try to fix up its In-house probs like paedophilia and the like:):), hahahhahahahah smile:):)

425 Reply by Brack

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

snakes&ladders wrote:
Brack wrote:

Pit Stop Perfection - Courtesy of the BBC > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20396345

McLaren recorded the world's fastest Formula 1 pit stop during the German Grand Prix in July this year, with a stationary time of 2.31 seconds, while they changed Jenson Button's tyres

So what Brack??! Are you saying that is what makes the diff in F1 racing or are you deliberatley ignoring what MORE SERIOUS racing mags report as being fundamental in obtaining good results??? I think BBC had better stay out of F1 racing reporting and try to fix up its In-house probs like paedophilia and the like:):), hahahhahahahah smile:):)

Hmm... I think you better keep this thread to all matters F1 .... don't you think?

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426 Reply by RickB

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

What a crazy race! So many changes in positions throughout with the rain coming and going. Congrats to Button for the win, Vettel for the WC and Red Bull for the MC. 
Rick

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

- what a race, what a season! And I moaned a while back about the sport having become boring.... and in retribution somenody turned (motorbike) MotoGP boring instead! smile


.... must admit BBC have lost the plot on F1...- could n't watch it on BBC any longer, - had enough of Eddie Jordan talking rubbish, - combine that with having to look at his sense of dress sad

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428 Reply by RickB

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Ian916 wrote:

- what a race, what a season! And I moaned a while back about the sport having become boring.... and in retribution somenody turned (motorbike) MotoGP boring instead! smile


.... must admit BBC have lost the plot on F1...- could n't watch it on BBC any longer, - had enough of Eddie Jordan talking rubbish, - combine that with having to look at his sense of dress sad

I can't comment on the BBC Ian, but agree wholeheartedly about the state of F1. More and more parity among the top teams with back markers moving up, and driver skill abetted with some racing luck reigns again. Next year is looking good.

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429 Reply by Brack

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Ian916 wrote:

- what a race, what a season! And I moaned a while back about the sport having become boring.... and in retribution somenody turned (motorbike) MotoGP boring instead! smile


.... must admit BBC have lost the plot on F1...- could n't watch it on BBC any longer, - had enough of Eddie Jordan talking rubbish, - combine that with having to look at his sense of dress sad

Well yeah! what a race! Kinda had everything. Congrats to Jenson, and Seb of course.

I agree with you about Eddie J - the mute button comes in handy when he's on, then it's time to make a cup of tea! smile
My only gripe, is with the Director(s) of F1, not the BBC. He ... or she, loves to replay the start of the race, over and over, with the on-board cameras, even if it's an incident free start. You have to be a F1 nerd i guess to enjoy that. Apart from that, i enjoy the coverage.

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

A lot of fun racing this season.  I'm very happy with how Texas went and then to end the season with such a wild one was very cool.

"what's the point of race cars, rocket ships and rock and roll?"

431 Reply by LynB

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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Brack wrote:

My only gripe, is with the Director(s) of F1, not the BBC. He ... or she, loves to replay the start of the race, over and over, with the on-board cameras, even if it's an incident free start. You have to be a F1 nerd i guess to enjoy that.

Hi Brack - meet an F1 nerd big_smile: ! 

That was some race yesterday and HUGE well done to Vettel.  The gods were throwing it all at him yesterday: Bruno Senna, the weather, tyre choice - but in the end what a performance.  Although he didn't finish on the podium he just clinched the championship leaving Fernando Alonso to perhaps reflect on what if ...  Yes, I think 2012 is going to go down as a vintage year.

It was poignant to see Michael Schumacher in his last race.  I do hope having called it a day he really means it this time.  I like him as a driver, but don't want to see his achievements becoming sullied by another come back.  It's time to give the young guns a chance.  Farewells possibly too to Kubayashi and Kovolainen who are both without a drive for next year.  Which leaves us with Lewis.  His thanks to the McLaren team on his race helmet yesterday was touching but I can't help thinking he's made the worst decision of his career so far.  Time will tell.

2013 is going to be an interesting season!

  • From: Norddeutschland
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Re: New F1 season kicks off this weekend

Yes, fellow nerd here also Lyn. I was rooting for Alonso and after such a brilliant start and Vettels drama's it was looking good.
But full marks to Seb. Finishing the first lap last and the 6th in 8th was a testimony to his tenacity. He is the real deal and has what it takes.

See he couldn't resist a dig at those who have 'played dirty' against Red Bull this year. Oh well, to the victor the spoils. A worthy champion.

I do think Lotus robbed Ferrari this year of the chance what with Grosjean and Kimi both assaulting Alonso in Spa and Japan. Extra points there could have made the diferrence. Was an excellent performance again and Massa proved his worth to the team by doing everything he could to assist Fernando's cause.

Sorry to see Kobayashi will be without a drive. Another ferocious competitor and he really doesn't make too many mistakes. Compared to Perez' second half of the season, very few.

Michael looks comfortable with his decision this time. I don't think we'll see him racing competitively again. He just doesn't need it any more. I think he is cured..at least a little bit.

Over to Vettel now though. Those 7 titles could be on his radar having racked up 3 already. Roll 2013.

No Hits, No Hype.......................Classic Rock Jan 2012