[ Closed ] Greece (Page 2 of 2)

Now you're really jerking my tail. Profit is NOT an entitlement.  Successful companies are those that evolve with the times, those that realize a company is only as successful as it's "lowest" employee. I too am in the Market and companies like I describe do exist and prosper. I choose to support local businesses as much as possible, effecting my tax base.

As for taxes, we are a bunch of whiners. We pay far less, for far more than most developed countries. Ask people what they are willing to give up for lower taxes and you'll see most say "nothing". Rich people, large corps. all get breaks based on the "trickle down" concept. Again, it doesn't work. Better stated, it doesn't trickle past the top tiers.

Now I have the "vapors" and need to chill....

I am absolutely with you on this point.

there is no such thing as too big to fail in my opinion.

I re-read my post and did not see the word entitlement anywhere.  Profit is not an entitlement, but something we work our tails off for, sacrificing time, and taking risk.

So lets take the Tax Break argument for a moment.  Suppose, an individual makes big bucks and gets a tax break of $1,000,000.  If that person makes enough money that he or she gets this kind of tax break, they obviousely don't need that $1M to live on and they probably won't put it under their matress.

They will either spend it. which creates demand, which creates jobs, which creates taxes or they will re-invest it in a sucessful company, which will use it to expand their business and create jobs and create additional tax bases.

Everyone gets so emotional about rich folks and tax breaks.  Do we really think that Government does a better job with our money then we could do with it.

You started down the political/ social line let me have my say so.

You mention about Socialism although I don't even know if you really know what that is
because if you think this health care bill is Socialism, then you don't know what it is.

I can tell by your first post that you are  interested more in yourself than others.
The most important thing to you over other's people grief is MONEY.

Oh Greece, another Country that I don't live in is in turmoil, but what about my money?
And the way there Country is, it is hurting MY MONEY.

First, your own Country is in a world of hurt, so maybe you should start there.

And by the way,  California is not like another State in the US.  California is more like it's own Country than a state.  With one of the biggest economies in the world and not just the US, and 1/8 the population in the US it has to be handled differently than just a State.

Also, California is one of the most progressive states in the Nation and on the forefront of new ideas.

You said Capitalism actually works.  Really?  Why don't you explain how Capitalism worked in the mortgage industry crisis, because that was Capitalism from your viewpoint at it's best and from my viewpoint at it's worse.  And look who had to bail them out- the Government.

The reason from your viewpoint it would be at it's best, was because you didn't have regulations to control it and you don't want that because Government is putting the kabosh on Capitalism.  Capitalism needs to be free to do what it does so it can be the Dog eat Dog world that it really is.  The banks became investment banks and it was the greediest all out for themselves.  We don't care in the long run what happens to business as long as we can get all the money and power we can now, even if we run a business in the ground.  And the reason that people like you  care is not because the business is run to the ground, but because your dividends are ruined and you lost money in the market.  People in the market don't care about the business, just what kind of dividends it can bring to them.  A great point is when Steve Jobs is sick, The reason the stockholders only care about Steve Jobs health is because what will that do to Apple.  Not what will that do to Steve Jobs personally, but what will it do to Apple and there dividends.

And if you do care so much about the taxpayer money, I see you only brought up the point about helping people out.  What about the cost of war?  Are you concerned about your money going to that?  And you will love this, because Cheney is the one who loves to contract out, oh by the way do you know it is to his own company?  He made sure Haliburton had a no-bid contract.  And for people who think Cheney believes in the military,  He was the one as the Secretary of Defense that closed a lot of the bases down.  You know why.  So he could contract the work out to his buddies.  And yet he would have the military protect his contracted buddies.  Why don't you look at the pay differential between the military and the private industry of Haliburton and Blackwater that was contracted out?  And yet, the contractors would have to call on a soldier if they didn't want to do something and thought it was too dangerous.  We send the soldier in but not the contractor. 

why don't you look in the US and tell me what percentage of people in the US make over $1,000,000 dollars?

And being in the business world, let me give you the down low.  When you have a lot of money, you can hire an Accountant to give you all kinds of tax breaks to shelter your money where you don't have to pay your fair share.  Look up at how much tax Exxon paid.

It is about having jobs, but it's also about having jobs with a living sustainable wage.
And not just spreading the wealth to a few.  You may not like government jobs, but they are not there to make a profit, so there employees have a sustainable wage that they can spend into the economy and you are talking about a number of people.  Many opposed to your few.   I have seen a number of Private industry where the wealth goes all to the top and the worker's are paid the minimum and have a hard time living.  In private industry it's driven by profits and paying low wages to people is one of their means.  This is the real world.  That is why you have a number of corporations going oversees.  That is how much the American companies that you love and will invest in this country with there millions believe in American workers.

And yes, I believe government does a better job with Social Security for the mass of people will have for their retirement  especially if they won't have a pension plan. Also they are given Medicare.  So there is a safety net for a number of people who are older.

We don't always take care of our elderly in America, but in this way we do.

With Bush's plan you would be on your own and invest the money.  You would have lost all or most of it in the market. Then were would you be at.  With no money, broke and maybe homeless.  Some people can afford the risk, a lot can't.

It's not about Government vs. Private Industry or Capitalism.  It is about being efficient and effective in both ways.   

You need good regulations because Business or people can't police itself.  You already had a lifelong example of this.

We need great business people with ethics like you need great government people with ethics.

Yes, I am a capitalist, non apologetically.

Yes, I am looking after my own self interest, non apologetically.

I don't want to have to need gov't handouts when I retire.  It's called self responsibility.

The U.S. is in a world of hurt, hurt by both political parties.  As I stated earlier, I dislike most all political parties.

Greece is just that much closer to what will happen if we continue on this path and Obamacae is taking the first step down that road.

I also never said to remove all regulations.  I said we are over regulated.  there's a significant difference between too much and none.

California has 12% of the nations population and 30% of the nations welfare cases.  Why, because this "progressive" state chose not to adopt Clinton's reforms and limit welfare to 60 months.  So.. the "poor" come here in droves and live off the state as a way of life.

Reagan's policies worked, unfortunately they worked too well and led, in part to the financial crisis.

But we place all the blame on the wall street firms.  Where is the responsibility of the individual to NOT borrow $600,000 on a house when he makes $40,000 per year.

Do we take the responsibility off of the individual because a bank told them it was Ok to borrow that much money?

I was offered a rediculeously high amount of money to buy a home when I moved to California 11 years ago.  I did the math, figured out what I could afford and borrowed that amount, which by the way, was about 1/3 of what i was approved for.  It's called being responsible.

As to the cost of the war, let me repeat that I was no fan of GW, did not like that he got us into it and we are now in a lose-lose situation.  I also don't agree with the no bid deals that cheney negotiated.

I have no idea what percentage of people make over $1M and that was not the point of my post.  It was more in regards to what rich folks would do with their money if they had it.

I prefer to have cash in the economy to create jobs then to have that money in the hands of the government.

I truly believe in the old saying:  Give a man a fish and he will come back hungry tomorrow.  Teach a man to fish and he can provide for himslef.

I believe in a hand up, not a hand out.

As to government jobs, the state union employees in CA can retire at 55 yrs of age and 30 yrs service with 85% - 90% of their base wages, plus low cost, genereous health care that I pay for in my nearly 10% state income tax rate.

My retirement is based solely on what I save & invest (hence the GREED factor I'm being acused of).  so in this state's economy that is about to falter with state union pensions at unsustainable levels, I should contribute more taxes so these folks can retire with a better life than me?  If you feel that way, i respect your opinion.  I just disagree.  CA is Greece in the waiting and the US, Spain, Portugal, Italy and many others are waiting in line to dive in.

A few things are certain.

1.  I will never change your mind
2.  You will never change my mind
3.  While I truly enjoy this debate and could go on and on and on and on, I am done posting on this.

Flame as you so desire, I'm going back to looking at guitars.

That´s true. The German help for Greece is in reality help for German banks which earned a lot of money in all kind of speculations concerning Greece and are sitting now on their Greek loans. Of course again it´s the tax payer who has to pay, the banks are joining in with a rather symbolic sum selling it as a most generous gesture and expression of their high responsibility.
Günter

If you pride your self as being self responsible then you don't have to take Social Security and Medicare when it is offered to you.  Put your money where your belief is and turn it down.
Pay for your own medical insurance. 

And since you don't like handouts, then pay your fair share of taxes.  Don't take all the deductions, like mortgage interest, property taxes, and all the exemptions and credits that are on your IRS and FTB forms.  Those are what you call Government Handouts for you.  The government is giving you a break on your taxes.
 
Not everyone can invest as you, and I am self sufficient. I come from a business background and know the reality of the world.  You are lucky enough to have money TO invest.  There are a number of people who only have money to survive and not enough to invest.  Not everyone can afford a house.  Not everyone was raised in a middle class or rich household. 

I am lucky enough to have a pension.  I know most people in this country aren't.  Since your Rich People do such a fine job with their money and creating jobs, why don't you look at how many businesses offer their employees pensions these days?  They don't.

That is why Social Security is so important for people when they retire. 

Also, a number of businesses are created by small business owners, not millionaires.

And if  money comes down to hard work and being self suffcient, then why is George Bush wealthier than you ever will be or dream to be? You must not be working hard enough.