• From: Salinas Valley, CA
  • Registered: 2010-03-11
  • Posts: 4

Topic: Santa Cruz Show

Very good show.  Never saw the guy live.  He does a great show and is a very cool player in concert.  Beautiful tone all night long. 

But the sound guys were KILLING it.  They put a hip-hop mix on the bass and the kick drum that totally drowned everything else.  They pumped the lows on the EQ and cranked the volume so that we could barely discern bass notes from one other that were three or four semi-tones apart.  The guitar and vocals spent a good portion of the night buried behind superlow-superloud, and the melody for most of the songs could never show its face.

About 25% of the time, the mix was passable (or the bass player was offstage), and that was a welcome relief.  That was the only time we could hear the keyboards, which sounded AWESOME.

If anyone in Santa Cruz runs into a guy today who is walking around town all puffed talking about how he did FOH sound for Bonamassa last night at the RIO, please kick that person right in the n*ts for me.  That guy owes me, and probably everybody else in the audience, money.

I'm not a negative guy, but sound guys have been doing this more and more often over the past few years.  Hey, Joe!  I'll kick in $200 to have a guy do FOH, or at least supervise the others doing FOH, next time you come to Santa Cruz or Monterey!

  • Registered: 2008-02-04
  • Posts: 7

Re: Santa Cruz Show

Jo Ti,

Thank you so much for your comments about the mix.  I love this band; this was my 6th show in 2 years (2x Coach House, Monterey Blues, San Jose Jazz, and Galaxy/Santa Ana) and I've commented twice in the past about how hard it has been to hear Rick's keyboards in the mix, despite the great work he does.  I was in the 3rd row center right last night, right in front of the right center-fill speaker and able to hear the right line array and subs clearly.  I rarely heard Rick, just faint B3 sounds, never clean piano, and obviously the Rhodes/Wurlitzer sound in Sloe Gin.  His background vocal came through well, and it was a surprise each time he started playing the tambourine.

I'm a bass player, and so I confess I don't mind hearing lots of bass, kick and floor tom as the foundation for Joe's big sound, but it is problematic when they are heard and the keys and Joe's vocals are not, so I agree there can be too much of a good thing.  Joe's guitar should be as prominent in the mix as it would be for any other guitar superstar (Carlos Santana, Van Halen, etc)

I remember reading (I think it was on one of Joe's CD jackets) that they use a traveling FOH engineer, which would explain the consistent mixing behavior.

I strongly recommend that Joe either replace the traveling FOH engineer (if he uses one) with someone who can "play the band" properly or simply use the best local guy available.  With Joe's wireless gear he can stand out in the house during sound check to at least set the baseline sound he wants, to be adjusted when the crowd arrives.

Jo Ti Mahr wrote:

Very good show.  Never saw the guy live.  He does a great show and is a very cool player in concert.  Beautiful tone all night long. 

But the sound guys were KILLING it.  They put a hip-hop mix on the bass and the kick drum that totally drowned everything else.  They pumped the lows on the EQ and cranked the volume so that we could barely discern bass notes from one other that were three or four semi-tones apart.  The guitar and vocals spent a good portion of the night buried behind superlow-superloud, and the melody for most of the songs could never show its face.

About 25% of the time, the mix was passable (or the bass player was offstage), and that was a welcome relief.  That was the only time we could hear the keyboards, which sounded AWESOME.

If anyone in Santa Cruz runs into a guy today who is walking around town all puffed talking about how he did FOH sound for Bonamassa last night at the RIO, please kick that person right in the n*ts for me.  That guy owes me, and probably everybody else in the audience, money.

I'm not a negative guy, but sound guys have been doing this more and more often over the past few years.  Hey, Joe!  I'll kick in $200 to have a guy do FOH, or at least supervise the others doing FOH, next time you come to Santa Cruz or Monterey!

  • From: Deep in the forest
  • Registered: 2007-02-11
  • Posts: 5,296

Re: Santa Cruz Show

Sounds like you guys know your stuff! I do know a bad mix can be irritating at best. But I'll take a live show, even over the telephone, so I'm sure you still enjoyed yourselves. It KILLS Joe to have sound problems. Here's his comment from facebook..

Joe Bonamassa "Eishh.. Tough night for me. Had some rig problems, made some stupid mistakes, and my 15 year old Boss DD-3 delay died after 2000 shows and 11 albums."

I don't know what was effected by this pedal problem, but I'm certain it didn't help. My roomie is a player, and he says that pedal is hard to find, so I guess Joe's all over E-Bay today looking for a replacement. So, I'm sorry for you guys and for the "Boss".       Cathy

  • From: The 1st State
  • Registered: 2010-02-07
  • Posts: 358

Re: Santa Cruz Show

Young Mans Blues  - Santa Cruz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ti9RyuwUqk

  • Lee
  • Lee
  • BONAMETAL
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2006-04-21
  • Posts: 2,476

Re: Santa Cruz Show

If you know Joe long enough, you'll discover that nobody cares about the sound at their show more than Joe does. That's why he now hauls around his own PA from show to show, although I don't believe he always uses it. He also has his own guy for handling the soundboard - and you just might get a response from him if he reads this topic.

IMO, it usually comes down to the fact that venues are different, acoustics are different within each venue, and individuals perceptions are different. I've been to shows where I thought the bass was too heavy and shows where it could have been heavier. I would agree that in general the keyboards seem to get lost most of the time. I would also say that IMO, more often than not, the shows would sound better if they weren't so loud.

  • From: Salem, Oregon
  • Registered: 2010-01-07
  • Posts: 844

Re: Santa Cruz Show

All the Oregon shows sound was primo, except one night he had a small crackle in the left amp that was fixed pronto. Sounds like he killed some of his equipment while killing us with the shows!

Murfdog
  • From: Clackamas, Oregon
  • Registered: 2006-04-22
  • Posts: 196

Re: Santa Cruz Show

Tough break on the Santa Cruz show sound.

The comments above capture my understanding that Joe is very concerned about delivering a Quality experience for every person that attends the shows.

He does everything he can to reduce the risk of sound system issues.

RockinRon

Two kinds of women in this world. Theres naughty and there's nice
Any man will tell you that one is a virtue
And the other is a Vice.
Warren Haynes-Inside Outside Women Blues #3-By a Thread

8 Reply by Rocket (edited by Rocket 2010-03-12 15:12:45)

  • Rocket
  • Rocket
  • BONAMEGAMETAL
  • Offline
  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2006-04-26
  • Posts: 10,275

Re: Santa Cruz Show

cathysiler wrote:

Sounds like you guys know your stuff! I do know a bad mix can be irritating at best. But I'll take a live show, even over the telephone, so I'm sure you still enjoyed yourselves. It KILLS Joe to have sound problems. Here's his comment from facebook..

Joe Bonamassa "Eishh.. Tough night for me. Had some rig problems, made some stupid mistakes, and my 15 year old Boss DD-3 delay died after 2000 shows and 11 albums."

I don't know what was effected by this pedal problem, but I'm certain it didn't help. My roomie is a player, and he says that pedal is hard to find, so I guess Joe's all over E-Bay today looking for a replacement. So, I'm sorry for you guys and for the "Boss".       Cathy

Big deal they know their stuff. All of Tyler's posts have a complaint about the mix.  We get it. You can't hear Rick Melick.  That is on purpose.  The mix is that way.  You have to listen selectively to hear him.  He is blending in VERY well.  He often "only" doubles Joe's sound until Joe's solos, when you aren't likely to pay much more attention either.  I love Rick's sound.  I was anti-permanent keyboardist for Joe back in his trio daze, as what I had was a preconceived notion of the possible limited sound of it.  It has never come to fruition.

The live mix.......Everybody wants to take the job.  Guess what? They'll #@$@# about yours too.  I publicly owe Warren an apology and I should've done it face-to-face.  I complained about the San Diego show here last year, how the vocals went totally haywire painfully several times.  And I "almost made my way to the mixing board for some unsolicited advice".  Usually when I am hesitant if not vocally silent later, I was / am off the mark. Well I was that night as it wasn't his fault.  It was only due to where I was sitting.  I received a recording, not from the mixing desk, but from someone located further back than me and there was NO ISSUE.  It was onstage only.  Sorry Warren, I should've let you know at HAB, but I was too busy telling everyone, including you, how great your mix was there. 
There's usually a DD-3 on Craigslist.  Especially locally, I see one every few weeks at least.  Anyway there is always someone faithful in the audience to give true feedback on sound, and an unnamed source or 4 who know the score. I'll give everyone a head's up-sit further back for better sonic results, up front because You just "have to be there". 

Rock ON & Keep the Faith,
Rocket

You know your stuff, you know damn well it ain't so easy.  Overconfidence bites butts harder than incompetence sometimes.

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
"Everybody wants ta get inta the act!"
“Now, this isn’t your ordinary party crowd, here.  I mean, there are professionals in here.”
  • From: Salinas Valley, CA
  • Registered: 2010-03-11
  • Posts: 4

Re: Santa Cruz Show

Before the music started, some friends and I were checking out the Hammond and the Leslie cabinet behind it , and we were stoked.  They might as well have left it at home.  If I were looking to have somebody simply double my sound, I don't know that I would haul a Hammond and a Leslie cabinet around to do it.

I'm a player, and I have only done sound as a dedicated "sound guy" a few times.  I know it's not easy, and I know every room is different.  But, once you have the bass eq'd, there's a single slider that controls its volume.  The EQ'ing, particularly on bass, can be a little complicated.  The volume, on the other hand, is pretty simple.

A screw up here and there happens.  I had the front man throw his hands up with a "WTF???" look one time because I killed his vocal mic in the middle of their best song.  I grouped it wrong, and when I muted the backing vocal mics to prevent feedback on a three song stretch where there would be no backing vocals, I muted the lead vocal mic, as well.  Stuff happens.  But, if it's a bad room, and I don't think the Rio is, that's why you have an EQ.  The sound we're complaining about was not a backload of standing waves.  That sound sucked the moment it passed through the speaker grill.

This overwhelming bass and kick, EQ'd super-low and turned up super-loud, is done on purpose by guys who are following some formula they learned at some class without considering that the guy who delivered the formula either had his "pants on the ground" or was wearing dreads, and no one on the stage used at that class had a Les Paul or a Hammond. 

I assume Bonamassa cares about sound, otherwise, I wouldn't bother mentioning it.  If I griped on a forum every time I heard a show where some knucklehead put a death-metal or a hip-hop mix on a blues band or a rock band, I wouldn't have time to do anything but gripe on posts.  This is not a matter of personal preference.  And maybe one of the guys on this thread does complaint often about sound, but maybe he's right.  This is happening a lot over the past several years, and the reason is because this is how sound guys are being taught to mix sound.  I'm sure the formula works, but only for guys named Coco-Puff or Biggy something-or-other.

I really appreciate Bonamassa's music.   It's perfect for guys like me who are more British blues than American blues and who rocked Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, ZZ Top, Lynyrd Skynyrd and Aerosmith in the parking lot at their high school (before they were expelled).  I can't say I really heard that music Wed. night.  I did hear an annoying, distorted boom that had no melody and that sucked all of the music from the room.  So did the guys I was with.

  • jim m
  • jim m
  • BONAMETAL
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  • From: Okie City, OK
  • Registered: 2006-04-24
  • Posts: 3,429

Re: Santa Cruz Show

Jo Ti Mahr wrote:

Before the music started, some friends and I were checking out the Hammond and the Leslie cabinet behind it , and we were stoked.  They might as well have left it at home.  If I were looking to have somebody simply double my sound, I don't know that I would haul a Hammond and a Leslie cabinet around to do it.

I'm a player, and I have only done sound as a dedicated "sound guy" a few times.  I know it's not easy, and I know every room is different.  But, once you have the bass eq'd, there's a single slider that controls its volume.  The EQ'ing, particularly on bass, can be a little complicated.  The volume, on the other hand, is pretty simple.

A screw up here and there happens.  I had the front man throw his hands up with a "WTF???" look one time because I killed his vocal mic in the middle of their best song.  I grouped it wrong, and when I muted the backing vocal mics to prevent feedback on a three song stretch where there would be no backing vocals, I muted the lead vocal mic, as well.  Stuff happens.  But, if it's a bad room, and I don't think the Rio is, that's why you have an EQ.  The sound we're complaining about was not a backload of standing waves.  That sound sucked the moment it passed through the speaker grill.

This overwhelming bass and kick, EQ'd super-low and turned up super-loud, is done on purpose by guys who are following some formula they learned at some class without considering that the guy who delivered the formula either had his "pants on the ground" or was wearing dreads, and no one on the stage used at that class had a Les Paul or a Hammond. 

I assume Bonamassa cares about sound, otherwise, I wouldn't bother mentioning it.  If I griped on a forum every time I heard a show where some knucklehead put a death-metal or a hip-hop mix on a blues band or a rock band, I wouldn't have time to do anything but gripe on posts.  This is not a matter of personal preference.  And maybe one of the guys on this thread does complaint often about sound, but maybe he's right.  This is happening a lot over the past several years, and the reason is because this is how sound guys are being taught to mix sound.  I'm sure the formula works, but only for guys named Coco-Puff or Biggy something-or-other.

I really appreciate Bonamassa's music.   It's perfect for guys like me who are more British blues than American blues and who rocked Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, ZZ Top, Lynyrd Skynyrd and Aerosmith in the parking lot at their high school (before they were expelled).  I can't say I really heard that music Wed. night.  I did hear an annoying, distorted boom that had no melody and that sucked all of the music from the room.  So did the guys I was with.

Constructive criticism is one thing but attacking his sound man with insults is not tolerated. You said your peace again I hope you feel better. If I thought it would help I would offer you tickets to a show down the road. If you want to grind an axe then take it somewhere else.

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