Topic: Effects in the Studio

I was checking out the thread on the new Verb pedal and the comparrison to the Fuchs etc.  This got me to wondering how Joe and you other guys deal with engineers in the studio who insist on a dry signal going to tape saying "we'll add it in the mix"There's nothing like a good spring verb in the studio and my Fuchs ODS has a fantastic verb. 

What do you guys do?  Joe, please add your two cents.

Re: Effects in the Studio

I'll tell you what I'd do.  I'd tell the sound engineer that having the reverb on gives the amp a certain feel and that feeling is what makes you play the way you do.  Prove to him that it sounds killer just the way it is!  If it works as is I don't see an engineer trying to make more work for himself than neccessary!

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.

Re: Effects in the Studio

Do like Eric Clapton did in the 60's.  They told him he need to turn his amp down, that its too loud and he told them this is how I play.  The sound of marshall and les paul wouldn't have happened as early as it did if EC had backed down.  Just tell them flat out NO!

Re: Effects in the Studio

DannyG wrote:

I was checking out the thread on the new Verb pedal and the comparrison to the Fuchs etc.  This got me to wondering how Joe and you other guys deal with engineers in the studio who insist on a dry signal going to tape saying "we'll add it in the mix"There's nothing like a good spring verb in the studio and my Fuchs ODS has a fantastic verb. 

What do you guys do?  Joe, please add your two cents.

BTW my dad recorded an album and the engineer kept asking him to lose the delay/reverb because he could do that post recording.  My dad told him to trust him because he had a killer tone already dialed in.  All of the tracks that my dad played on sounded absolutely killer because of how he had his rig set up.  The key is working with an engineer that trusts you and that you can trust.

'67 and '74 Fender Twin Reverbs, '74 Marshall 1987 lead mkII, Metro Superlead 100. Pedals from TC Electronic, Ibanez, Dunlop, BK Butler, Electro-Harmonix, Fulltone, Maestro/Gibson, Loopmaster switching, VoodooLab, Boss. Gibson and Fender guitars, Dimarzio pickups.

Re: Effects in the Studio

The "problem" with recording a guitar with effects is that you can't really remove or adjust the effects to fit the guitar in the mix.  However, there is no right or wrong way of doing things.  I would A/B the recorded reverb and reverb added post-tracking.  If it is a real problem, a compromise is to add the reverb into your phones while you record so you put the dry track on tape, but are playing like you tacking with reverb.

Re: Effects in the Studio

Just like if you are on a date with a really hot looking girl, confidence rules the day.  Engineer aint the boss of you.  Just walk in with you tone together and say this is it fellas..  But also know what mic you like and how you like it positioned.  Again just like on a date.  I use 421's for the room.  Kevin has a 57/ beyer combo for close mic..  The room is important.  You get the warmth and bottom from the room.  As a guitarist you manifest your own tone.  You will get there.  Never totally get off your game plan in the studio. 
good luck
Joe

7 (edited by Rocket 2010-01-01 10:29:52)

Re: Effects in the Studio

Joe is right, if you are paying the guy or gal at the board, he is not the boss. If he or she can't deliver what YOU want, trust me there are plenty who will do EXACTLY as you ask, albeit there is a chance you don't like how your "exactness" sounds in the end.  A producer can be the arbiter of exactly what to do and say, but again, if he or she's on your dotted line, YOU make the decision. Now, Joe has it together unlike anybody I've ever seen or heard, so Kevin's style of recording "live" must be like a dream.  And Joe has golden ears. Not everyone needs fancy doodle engineering, and even a great engineer can only make GREAT out of preexisting excellency.  But if musician(s) makes easy work out of recording sessions for an engineer and producer, things are like a dream state indeed, instead of grueling nightmarish horrors of exhaustion.  If you know what you want, and can get it yourself, great, but if you can hear 'it" and need some professional opinions, work it whatever way you can.  The compromise doesn't work if you aren't even using headphones but relying on the room sounds with YOUR amp and YOUR effects set up YOUR way.  Sometimes it has to go down in one take and no fiddling with "perfection".
Reverb from an amp, a large reflective warehouse room or plate, outboard, pedal or amp reverb has to be (will be) set in stone at some point, and pre-effect(s) Y-split tracking (dry vs. "wet") is an answer if you need insurance as you work it.
But as Joe advises, stick with your game plan or revise it a tad but don't desert it on a whim (of others).

Rock ON & Keep the Faith,
Rocket

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
"Everybody wants ta get inta the act!"
“Now, this isn’t your ordinary party crowd, here.  I mean, there are professionals in here.”

8 (edited by kissfanps 2010-01-01 21:37:30)

Re: Effects in the Studio

Joe and Rocket bring up some good points.  It's your music, your dime, and your gear.  You are the master.  I guess I let the engineer in me cloud my response.  roll 

I too love the 421's for the room sound.  It captures some great warmth that a close mic may not.

Re: Effects in the Studio

kissfanps wrote:

Joe and Rocket bring up some good points.  It's your music, your dime, and your gear.  You are the master.  I guess I let the engineer in me cloud my response.  roll 

I too love the 421's for the room sound.  It captures some great warmth that a close mic may not.

The engineer in me (always a much stronger point of influences than any semblance of musicianship in me) has a set of default thoughts exactly as yours were kissfanps.  I learned it that way.  But I have learned that one can adapt thoughts, as producers will DEFINITELY make you do so! And as a producer, you got to love to sometimes tweak the other chair a bit...while standing up, literally for what WE want (and that, whether expressed or acknowledged outright DOES include the engineer, second engineer, all those friends hangin' around, and the artists, albeit sometimes majority opinions over the artist's objections; but they can always use veto power, with no two-thirds votes overrides all decisions-good or bad, possible!)  Personally, I like phones and pure dry and the tracking with the reverb. It always sounds decent good and may or may not end up with the exact parameters entered or even printed at all. 

Rock On & Keep the Faith,
Rocket

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
"Everybody wants ta get inta the act!"
“Now, this isn’t your ordinary party crowd, here.  I mean, there are professionals in here.”

Re: Effects in the Studio

Thanks Joe!  And all you guys. 
No, I definatley held my ground.  Luckily on the last record the engineer is also a great guitarist He loved my tone and the sound I got.  Gear:  Fuchs ODS 50, PRS, Gibson ES 335, Fuchs onboard verb and a Rocktron rack intellifex delay.  Not too soupy...just a BIG sound.  57 close mic'd, 421 for room.  The guitar sounded great.  So...this session was a blast.  Most tracks used my first or second pass.

In the past I've worked with engineers/producers that wanted a dry guitar signal.  That never did work out right.  You have to feel the guitar vibe.  If it aint happening I aint happening.

Thanks again.

Plus, it's always good to have your act together.  Know the songs and the parts you want to do....experiementing while the clock is running isn't a really good idea.

Funny side note.  The title track for the CD was the last song recorded.  There were already three guitar parts on the track.  An acoustic, and two electrics..one being played by Bruce Springsteen.  I came in and thought the song sounded good and that one more guitar track would muddy it up.  The producer and engineer said to just play something.  So...without hearing the other parts I just played off the top of my head.  It's funny how sometimes magic happens in the studio.  All four tracks wove together in this magical way.  Very cool.

Re: Effects in the Studio

Joe Bonamassa wrote:

Just like if you are on a date with a really hot looking girl, confidence rules the day.  Engineer aint the boss of you.  Just walk in with you tone together and say this is it fellas..  But also know what mic you like and how you like it positioned.  Again just like on a date.  I use 421's for the room.  Kevin has a 57/ beyer combo for close mic..  The room is important.  You get the warmth and bottom from the room.  As a guitarist you manifest your own tone.  You will get there.  Never totally get off your game plan in the studio. 
good luck
Joe


lol  Good guitar and dating advice...No wonder I like this site so much!  Hot girls, engineers, and wolves all can smell fear!  I have more hot girl experience than the other two.  wink

Where the hell does one get a black-backed gold top anyway?