• From: Weymouth England
  • Registered: 2007-08-04
  • Posts: 10

Topic: Sound

Firstly I had better state that I am a big JB fan.  I picked up one of his tuition videos in a jumble sale once and that's how I got to hear of him. I was present at Mr Kyps, Friday 3 Aug, yesterday in fact. First time I have seen him live. I have to say it was disappointing. Why? The sound. One of my favourite YOUTUBE videos, one that I revisit time and again, is his Blues Deluxe live performance. What a great pity that the tone he produced on that night, in that little club, wherever it was, was not reproduced at Mr. Kyps.  This goes for both the voice and the guitar. I know that different venues require different approaches and that Les Pauls sound different from Strats but it seems to me that the sound guys have lost the plot in terms of tone, at the level of basic principle. This is only my opinion but in essence blues and endless chains of digital fx in the signal path and saturated overdrive and copious echo and reverb on vocal mics don't go together. These things are for the spandex- clad, poodle- haired ones. I was well placed last night, about 15 feet from the stage in the middle. The overall sound was, basically, mush. I could see that JB was playing some wicked riffs on the upper strings of his Les Paul but we couldnt hear it. It was all lost in the general mush of excess delay and overdrive.  I have experienced something similar with another favourite of mine Walter Trout at a UK gig last year. That, in your face, power tube- cooking breakup which makes the blues come alive on the electric was just not there. It sounded like he was miming to a Hi FI record, but he wasn't. Sadly the emotional impact of the blues he was playing was lost somewhere in the sound desk. People were stood around not realising why they were not responding. It was the sound, simple as that.  Pity, Joe is a great blues player but I think he needs to attend to the stage sound.  Perhaps it's a British thing.  Maybe that's how they like their blues in the USA! these days.  What a shame.

Life is hard....and then you die.
  • From: Tampa, Fl.
  • Registered: 2006-04-22
  • Posts: 870

Re: Sound

Sorry you had such a bad experience- you're the first person whos had a problem with the sound of a Joe concert (that I can remember)- every time I've seen him here in america he's had a great clear clean smooth sound- it sounds like there was a problem with the pa system or something...

Scott

"Interestingly, according to modern astronomers, space is finite. This is a very comforting thought-- particularly for people who can never remember where they have left things." - Woody Allen

http://www.last.fm/user/skynyrd128
  • jim m
  • jim m
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  • From: Okie City, OK
  • Registered: 2006-04-24
  • Posts: 3,429

Re: Sound

Joe uses much fewer pedals today than during his Strat days. One common effect is the Boss DD3. Still runs stereo one clean one wet. The Gibson has obvious tonal differences than the Strat. I still marvel at the tone he gets with his Gibson. His guitar cabs are run without processing from the FOH.

Joe like most blues artists run vocals dry FOH. I have seen effects run on his vocals very tastefully in the many shows I have seen. As with anything the amont of FX is a matter of taste. Too much of a good thing is never good. Was it truly too much who knows. I wasn't there to give an opinion. Again it would be an opinion. I prefer a little reverb on the drum kit myself. Some people don't.

We have a saying here in the states "opinions are like **** holes everybody has one." I hope you don't take offense I'm not implying anything here. wink

Feed back from shows is welcome here and so are peoples honest opinions. You obviously have strong opinions. I'm curious to hear others that have seen Joe live not just on You Tube. Joe reads the forum regularly. Contributes when he feels the need. You never know when he will chime in.

jim m's Website

  • From: Weymouth England
  • Registered: 2007-08-04
  • Posts: 10

Re: Sound

Ok Jim. Yes everyone has an opinion (our two countries are currently locked in a struggle to maintain the right to express them) and I was mighty wary of expressing a negative one on a site which 99% of the time, I imagine, venerates this man. This was why I prefaced my view as I did. Thank you for the information on the sound set up. As you say, some people like fx. Some people dont know the difference, that's the way it is. But there comes a point when it's not just a matter of taste. Your question 'was it truly too much?' implies that there is some absolute scale which transcends mere opinion. I believe there is such a thing as bad taste and that a discriminating mind, a good pro musician for example, will know when this point has been reached. Hey, it was a good show and I'm glad I saw the guy in the flesh, but there was way too much delay and reverb and digital **** mushing up the total sound experience. He doesn't need it, either on the voice or the guitar, it clogs up the communication path from the ears to the heart. With the blues it is vital to keep this route as pure as possible. In Mr Kyps, one decent miked -up amp behind him would have been enough. It would have been good to see him walk up, just plug his guitar lead straight into it and play the blues. Less is more. Just my opinion though.

Life is hard....and then you die.
  • From: Tampa, Fl.
  • Registered: 2006-04-22
  • Posts: 870

Re: Sound

blueser48 wrote:

Ok Jim. Yes everyone has an opinion (our two countries are currently locked in a struggle to maintain the right to express them) and I was mighty wary of expressing a negative one on a site which 99% of the time, I imagine, venerates this man. This was why I prefaced my view as I did. Thank you for the information on the sound set up. As you say, some people like fx. Some people dont know the difference, that's the way it is. But there comes a point when it's not just a matter of taste. Your question 'was it truly too much?' implies that there is some absolute scale which transcends mere opinion. I believe there is such a thing as bad taste and that a discriminating mind, a good pro musician for example, will know when this point has been reached. Hey, it was a good show and I'm glad I saw the guy in the flesh, but there was way too much delay and reverb and digital **** mushing up the total sound experience. He doesn't need it, either on the voice or the guitar, it clogs up the communication path from the ears to the heart. With the blues it is vital to keep this route as pure as possible. In Mr Kyps, one decent miked -up amp behind him would have been enough. It would have been good to see him walk up, just plug his guitar lead straight into it and play the blues. Less is more. Just my opinion though.

Was the delay on the guitar or vocals or all around?

"Interestingly, according to modern astronomers, space is finite. This is a very comforting thought-- particularly for people who can never remember where they have left things." - Woody Allen

http://www.last.fm/user/skynyrd128
  • From: Deep in the forest
  • Registered: 2007-02-11
  • Posts: 5,296

Re: Sound

Hey Blueser48, Thanks for posting and I get your point. While many here are players, there are lots of listeners too! Bad mixing, effects, volume..I'm with you on that. It's impossible to ignore. My last Joe show was at a festival and up front we were hearing the monitors which were excellent.  This kind of criticism is meant to address a possible technical problem. There is no hero worship here. The product is the sound and the consumer has the right to give feed back. Hope you get a better result at your next Joe show..Cathy

  • From: Weymouth England
  • Registered: 2007-08-04
  • Posts: 10

Re: Sound

Thanks Cathysiler. You got the point. I rate this man very highly and was trying to be constructive. I hope I haven't offended the faithful.

Life is hard....and then you die.
  • From: Harrison, Arkansas
  • Registered: 2006-04-21
  • Posts: 3,155

Re: Sound

As far as Joe is concerned, he's the type of guy that has canceled shows before because he was disappointed with the pa. Not saying you're wrong or right, wasn't there, can't form an opinion. But if you are right, I can assure that was an anomaly.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"

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www.reverbnation.com/deesfriends
  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
  • Posts: 5,807

Re: Sound

the amps couldve been mic'd too - and if the PA was less than optimal it could affect the sound. Also its different sounding with more people and less people in the room. I can see some of the highs fading off.

DUDE - stand in the front row next time - you wont miss a thing wink bring earplugs.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool
  • From: Tampa, Fl.
  • Registered: 2006-04-22
  • Posts: 870

Re: Sound

NPB_EST.1979 wrote:

the amps couldve been mic'd too - and if the PA was less than optimal it could affect the sound. Also its different sounding with more people and less people in the room. I can see some of the highs fading off.

DUDE - stand in the front row next time - you wont miss a thing wink bring earplugs.

I think Joe mics all his amps- thats how he can use the plexi shield and still get a huge sound all the way in the back row... I got a chance to stand in the front row twice- boy was that loud!  My ears were ringing for the next week!

"Interestingly, according to modern astronomers, space is finite. This is a very comforting thought-- particularly for people who can never remember where they have left things." - Woody Allen

http://www.last.fm/user/skynyrd128

11 Reply by CuztardPi (edited by CuztardPi 2007-08-07 07:47:07)

  • From: Portsmouth UK
  • Registered: 2006-06-26
  • Posts: 31

Re: Sound

Scanning the forum for tit-bits my interest was peaked by this thread.

Initially surprised at any criticism of Joe's concert sound (it has always been excellent when I've seen him in the past) my 'gast' was totally 'flabbered' when I realised it was Friday's Mr Kyps show that was being commented on. So in order to offer some defence to Mr Kyps & Joe and the guys a few friendly words in opposition ...

I too was lucky enough to get a ticket for the show ... & (IMHO) the sound was fantastic. It just goes to show, different strokes ... etc.

In fact I must have been quite near blueser48 as I too was centre stage but maybe a few feet behind him (~20ft from the stage). I always try to get in the 'sweet spot' for both stage & PA sound in order to get a good recording (to close: no vocals, keys, bass drum etc; to far and the room sound takes over). Mr Kyps has a great PA and consistently gets it right as far as live sound is concerned. Friday was no exception.
Mr Kyps is one of the better venues in terms of sound and when compared to bigger venues (theatre size upwards) there is absolutely no contest. Intimate, clear, clean, classy, great are all adjectives I would use for Mr Kyps' sound (& no I am not affiliated .. LOL).

So for what it is worth to respond to a few of blueser48's points:
".. endless chains of digital fx in the signal path and saturated overdrive.."
I disagree, all the electric guitars played on the night demonstrated their own signature tones, from thick treacly Les Paul, thru snappy tele-esque Gigliotti & pure strat to mellow Lucille. This would not be possible with chains of digi-effects in play. The guitar amps were certainly cooking but I heard no unpleasant "saturated overdrive", just wonderful classic blues & rock tones.

" ..copious echo and reverb on vocal mics.."
OK there was some slight stereo long delay on the vocals but in no way excessive & didn't detract from the overall sound ... Joe's voice sounded good as ever and fitted right in the sound made by the band.

"..mush ..."
... not where I was standing. It was clear & clean from a whisper to full throttle.

" ... Les Paul .. we couldn't hear it"
.. you are joking right? Every note was clear & true whether played with a blur of fingers or a single tone lasting 30 seconds.

" ... miming to a Hi-Fi record"
I might agree with Hi-Fi ... yes the sound was that good ("HiFi Mush" ... that's an oxymoron isn't it?). But "miming"??? hmm??

"People ... not responding"
Everyone was clearly enjoying the show. Plus it was too packed to jump about (like sweaty sardines in a tin due to the sell-out!!)(anyway aren't we too old for such youthful exuberance?? .. of course it could be my age.. LOL).

" .. it's a British thing"
Blueser48 does not speak for all us 'limeys'. I for one like my blues the way Joe plays it.

.. & not a "poodle" in sight, woof woof!!.. only jokin' LOL ;-D

I hope Joe returns sometime soon to Mr Kyps. The only "shame" would be if he didn't.

cheers - Steve

PS .. I had to add a big big WOW!!!!!! at "Blue Tea" as played on the night. Awesome!! Inspired!!! A revelation!!!. Who would have thought it possible??!!! yet it works so perfectly. I'm just glad I was there to hear it ( .. & yepp, you guessed it, I'm a big Led Zep fan).

PPS Just loved the addition of keyboards to the mix... & yes you could hear them just fine!!

  • jim m
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  • From: Okie City, OK
  • Registered: 2006-04-24
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Re: Sound

Thank you Steve for giving your perspective. Just goes to show you can't please everybody. I'm willing to guess Blueser48 was the that guy on that night.

jim m's Website

  • Rocket
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  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2006-04-26
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Re: Sound

Thank you very much Steve. And Jim. Diplomats indeed. You cannot please everyone, so you got to please yourself!  Therefore I hope you enjoyed the performance in your own right Joe!  It's hard for me to keep quiet on this because I am a New Yorker, and I know Joe is one of the least processed acts a person can catch outside of a bluegrass festival.  Pie in your face, he is that good, my opinion and I'd venture the "bootleg" sounds good if the recorder was in one's shoe & a misdirectional mic  had been placed in one's personal garbage disposal.

Crock On & Keep Me Faith Mates,
Rocket

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
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  • Jess
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  • Registered: 2006-04-21
  • Posts: 312

Re: Sound

Everyone is attracted to different sounds. I was thinking could some peoples gripes with live sound of bands be because they have lost some of the frequencies of their hearing? eg. if you have lost some of the top end of your hearing, it probably could sound like mush to you when it doesn't to someone else.

-Jess
Check out my band Beth and The Black Cat Bones http://www.myspace.com/bethandtheblackcatbones
Also my own page for my guitar playing http://www.myspace.com/jesszub
  • Rocket
  • Rocket
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  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2006-04-26
  • Posts: 10,275

Re: Sound

Jess wrote:

Everyone is attracted to different sounds. I was thinking could some peoples gripes with live sound of bands be because they have lost some of the frequencies of their hearing? eg. if you have lost some of the top end of your hearing, it probably could sound like mush to you when it doesn't to someone else.

That's actually a good explanation for many, as everyone starts losing the high end once 30 rolls around.

"He still doesn't charge for mistakes! wink"
http://jbonamassa.com/tour-dates/
"Everybody wants ta get inta the act!"
“Now, this isn’t your ordinary party crowd, here.  I mean, there are professionals in here.”
  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
  • Posts: 5,807

Re: Sound

CuztardPi  dissected that post like a grade school frog! whoh....

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
Ask me about my handwound Great Lakes Guitar Pickups
Since 2010, Bonamassa fans have taken advantage of my JB friend discount = my cost + shipping. cool
  • From: Weymouth England
  • Registered: 2007-08-04
  • Posts: 10

Re: Sound

Hi Y'all. Wasn't intending to chip in again but in view of cuztard Pi..... Apologies, the reference to 'miming to Hi Fi's' and ' people not realising why they were not responding' applies to the Walter Trout concert (my first post) and not to Joe at Mr Kyps. Should have made that clearer.  Looks like I was the only guy on the night then who was underwhelmed. I can take it. As for cuztardPi dissecting the post like a grade school frog. Hardly old boy, what he did was present a different perception of an event. Truth is I am going a tad deaf maybe that has got something to do with it. But I don't really believe so. It just boils down to a matter of taste I guess.  But hey, no....sometimes less really is more.

Life is hard....and then you die.
  • From: Deep in the forest
  • Registered: 2007-02-11
  • Posts: 5,296

Re: Sound

Hey Blueser48, Chip in any time. You have a great attitude and most here do as well. That's one of the best things about this forum..people with varied tastes each finding something special in Joe's music. Drama free....Cathy