• Registered: 2008-10-27
  • Posts: 176

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

JohnTB wrote:

Oh and both me and the other guitarist use a 18w (me) and 15(w) him its more than enough for almost all our gig gigs. Anywhere bigger usually supplies a pa if not I Mic guitars and put the thru pa but NOT the monitor. If theirs one thing I've learnt its that guitars can be too loud even if there on low.

Pretty interesting here. Do you have sufficient clean headroom with an 18 watt amp? I'm currently thinking about selling my Super Reverb because I think it's too loud. At rehearsal it's on 3/10 and at gigs it's at 5 with the FD-2 but it's really loud then. Can't really take advantage of the power tube distortion in those cases... So I'm thinking about a lower wattage amp, 18 or 20 watts in order to be able to crank it. 8/10 during gigs would be great! Tell us about the clean headroom you got then... I'm thinking about a Deluxe Reverb or possibly a Cornell 18/20, those look sweet and I know Gary Moore and Robin Trower used it to record in the studio... That says a lot!

Sorry if it's taking this topic a little astray for a while...

20 Reply by NPB_EST.1979 (edited by NPB_EST.1979 2010-07-22 09:40:56)

  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
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Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

AD3THREE wrote:

See we are going to mic the amps because our drummer swears if we don't he won't hear us so.


I've had drummers where this is the case. What I've done in this situation is put the guitar amp BEHIND the drummer, so it has to go through the drummer before it can hit anyone else. Then he will hear it. And for some reason, they love it like that. I just got a little annoyed when he started turning knobs on it  hmm  but it definitely solved the problem.

After that, I bought a used 1x12 Marshall cabinet for like $80 from a pawn shop and just ran a cable to his drumset, so he got essentially a monitor for my guitar but it was really an extension cab plugged into the other output of my amp. Worked nice.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
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21 Reply by bigjeffjones (edited by bigjeffjones 2010-07-22 11:16:07)

  • From: Edgewater, FL
  • Registered: 2007-12-08
  • Posts: 5,046

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

AD3THREE wrote:

See we are going to mic the amps because our drummer swears if we don't he won't hear us so.  I think he's full of crap but we are cattering to him there.  Our plan was to blast the vocals through the PA and have the guitar turned really low in the mix.  Like I said there is 7 of us and if we get spread out it makes it extreamly hard to hear the other side Stage Right will have stage Left in the mix and vocals while Stage Left will have stage right in their mix plus all the vocals.  Then our good friend who the band is named after will stand in a corner telling us to turn up or turn down our amps.  The mains will have nothing but vocals coming out. 

Oh and I checked into the Trolls they are on back order from under the bridge until August so maybe our outside gig they can hold the amps.  One of them has a nervous twitch and makes a cool tremelo sound with amps and a bit of reverb.

Fair enough.  That's where turning amps around backwards helps the drummer.  In a perfect world all amps would have an extension cab on the other side of the stage.  Splitting guitatr or bass n keys is a preference. thing.  Here's a link to several outdoor performances (outside) done with small amps on the back line even (inline) with the drummer (on stands) and small extension cabs.  All vocals (NO INSTRUMENTS) are miced throu the mains and the monitors.  The camerA is old analog Sony.  Check out the balance and the clarity of the instrumentation.

http://www.youtube.com/jjeffj008#p/u/24/QvlUCSro7lQ
http://www.youtube.com/jjeffj008#p/u/21/T7r_RXb_wTY
http://www.youtube.com/jjeffj008#p/u/20/pkO-IqCZNDI

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Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

I am with Jeff, we never mic amps or drums in small venues, just do vocals, but then we only have 3 on stage, hearing each other can be problem but if you know each other this is overcome quite easily.
We find plexis help the drummer if you need to throw him some sound (helps generally too).



bigjeffjones wrote:
AD3THREE wrote:

See we are going to mic the amps because our drummer swears if we don't he won't hear us so.  I think he's full of crap but we are cattering to him there.  Our plan was to blast the vocals through the PA and have the guitar turned really low in the mix.  Like I said there is 7 of us and if we get spread out it makes it extreamly hard to hear the other side Stage Right will have stage Left in the mix and vocals while Stage Left will have stage right in their mix plus all the vocals.  Then our good friend who the band is named after will stand in a corner telling us to turn up or turn down our amps.  The mains will have nothing but vocals coming out. 

Oh and I checked into the Trolls they are on back order from under the bridge until August so maybe our outside gig they can hold the amps.  One of them has a nervous twitch and makes a cool tremelo sound with amps and a bit of reverb.

Fair enough.  That's where turning amps around backwards helps the drummer.  In a perfect world all amps would have an extension cab on the other side of the stage.  Splitting guitatr or bass n keys is a preference. thing.  Here's a link to several outdoor performances (outside) done with small amps on the back line even (inline) with the drummer (on stands) and small extension cabs.  All vocals (NO INSTRUMENTS) are miced throu the mains and the monitors.  The camerA is old analog Sony.  Check out the balance and the clarity of the instrumentation.

http://www.youtube.com/jjeffj008#p/u/24/QvlUCSro7lQ
http://www.youtube.com/jjeffj008#p/u/21/T7r_RXb_wTY
http://www.youtube.com/jjeffj008#p/u/20/pkO-IqCZNDI

JustListen
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  • From: Was NY now FL/GA line
  • Registered: 2007-12-16
  • Posts: 2,855

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

AD3THREE wrote:

See we are going to mic the amps because our drummer swears if we don't he won't hear us so.  I think he's full of crap but we are cattering to him there.  Our plan was to blast the vocals through the PA and have the guitar turned really low in the mix.  Like I said there is 7 of us and if we get spread out it makes it extreamly hard to hear the other side Stage Right will have stage Left in the mix and vocals while Stage Left will have stage right in their mix plus all the vocals.  Then our good friend who the band is named after will stand in a corner telling us to turn up or turn down our amps.  The mains will have nothing but vocals coming out. 

Oh and I checked into the Trolls they are on back order from under the bridge until August so maybe our outside gig they can hold the amps.  One of them has a nervous twitch and makes a cool tremelo sound with amps and a bit of reverb.

I get the feeling.....oh well....seriously! shield the drummer. 7 is too many for a small venue. Give the drummer a monitor so he can hear the mix. Or, lose the loser.

  • From: Lancashire
  • Registered: 2008-02-26
  • Posts: 700

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

Well depends how you take clean, I'm the rhythm guitarist in a blues band doin stuff like howling wolf, muddy etc so in that sense yes its clean. But like my friend who plays a lot of shadows said "this amp ain't clean" and for him it wouldn't be.  I tell you a Tele + a 1974x 18w covers a lot of ground I turn the amp up to 6 and when the guitar is up full it is Marshall crunch thru and thru,  but roll the guitar down to 7 or 6 or even just by playing softer and it will clean up really well. It's the best purchase I've had and its solved all my search for tone.  That's the best I can describe it.

twistingcrow wrote:
JohnTB wrote:

Oh and both me and the other guitarist use a 18w (me) and 15(w) him its more than enough for almost all our gig gigs. Anywhere bigger usually supplies a pa if not I Mic guitars and put the thru pa but NOT the monitor. If theirs one thing I've learnt its that guitars can be too loud even if there on low.

Pretty interesting here. Do you have sufficient clean headroom with an 18 watt amp? I'm currently thinking about selling my Super Reverb because I think it's too loud. At rehearsal it's on 3/10 and at gigs it's at 5 with the FD-2 but it's really loud then. Can't really take advantage of the power tube distortion in those cases... So I'm thinking about a lower wattage amp, 18 or 20 watts in order to be able to crank it. 8/10 during gigs would be great! Tell us about the clean headroom you got then... I'm thinking about a Deluxe Reverb or possibly a Cornell 18/20, those look sweet and I know Gary Moore and Robin Trower used it to record in the studio... That says a lot!

Sorry if it's taking this topic a little astray for a while...

  • Registered: 2008-10-27
  • Posts: 176

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

Well the cleanest piece I play is Cray/Clapton's Old Love, which is not totally clean. I'd say it's the beginning of crunchiness... Mmm... interesting. I might go for the Cornell. This one tickles me a lot... Thanks!

  • From: Edgewater, FL
  • Registered: 2007-12-08
  • Posts: 5,046

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

AD3THREE wrote:

Oh and I checked into the Trolls they are on back order from under the bridge until August so maybe our outside gig they can hold the amps.  One of them has a nervous twitch and makes a cool tremelo sound with amps and a bit of reverb.

lol   Not bad... So?  how'd it go?

MuchAtwitter
BJJ FDOL

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  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
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Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

Well over the weekend we had a practice in our ususal basement and tryed to setup as though we were playing the show.  One guitarplayer kept saying we need to get the volume down.  So we turned the amps backwards and stacked them basically around our drummer.  We were all to spread out and I was on the end so practicing our first set was a nightmare because I could only hear everyone but me so flying blind isn't my idea of having fun playing guitar.  Of course the guy beside me said I was on fire that day and he could hear everything.  Frustrated we turned the amps back around and we were forced to turn down to a low volume and our drummer had to play softer then he was capible or willing to try.  I could hear myself but what I heard sounded weak and very much like a sound from a small toy guitar from Walmart.  Now I was angery and told our sound guy to turn all the mics off for a second.  When he asked why, my reply was our singer is having to hold back because he's so much louder then us.  If we are really going to play at this volume he might as well just shout out the lyrics it would sound better then this crap.  Must of struck a nerve because our drummer said he couldn't handle playing this soft and said we basically either turn up or get a drum machine.  Common sense was out the window that day and we had already lost 60% of our practice trying to keep the volume down. 
After a smoke break (except me I don't smoke) we tried to turn up loud enough to justify having a Tube amp and we kept the sound down but not so low that we lost interest in playing.  I guess all of it was a big learning curve we had to go through but I personally feel like we are too low of a volume still.  We'll know Friday I guess.  So Jeff it more or less was the setup you told us to use, no mics on any instruments and everything crammed up against the drummer.  2 floor monitors for vocals and two mains for vocals and maybe a CD player between breaks, oh and our cheap power mixer bridged in mono so we could power both sets of speakers.  Not a bad setup if I say so myself.  Just need to turn up louder.

bigjeffjones wrote:
AD3THREE wrote:

Oh and I checked into the Trolls they are on back order from under the bridge until August so maybe our outside gig they can hold the amps.  One of them has a nervous twitch and makes a cool tremelo sound with amps and a bit of reverb.

lol   Not bad... So?  how'd it go?

MuchAtwitter
BJJ FDOL

AD3THREE's Website

  • From: Edgewater, FL
  • Registered: 2007-12-08
  • Posts: 5,046

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

Good luck man.  aND STAY COOL!  The monitors near the drummer will catch some bleed from the mics.  You'll hear everything if you listen.  So will he.  It's a learned behavior, listening to the band as a whole.

MuchLove
BigJeff

PS:  The volume will creep up as the night wears on.

Rock On & Keep the FAITH
             It is
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  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

Sorry it took so long to get back on here after my gig.  It was great.  Big Jeff your right sound did get louder as the set carried on.  The guy throwing the party after our sound check said we were too loud but it wasn't the drums it was the vocals!  The way they had us facing was weird so we had pointed the Mains towards the crowd and we sort of played straight on.  after turning the speakers it was fine.  We sounded as good as we ever did and even got the birthday girl to come up and sing Sweet Home Alabama, which only one of us knew how to play, but it was still pretty good if you had drank as much as they did.  I used a overdrive pedal for my leads but decided to use it as a boost pedal so I ran it through my effects loop.  I was pretty loud for my leads  smile   No recordings of it so it is forever engrained in my mind as we did a perfect set even though you and I know better.  On to the out door gig August 21!

AD3THREE's Website

  • Registered: 2008-07-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

twistingcrow wrote:

Well the cleanest piece I play is Cray/Clapton's Old Love, which is not totally clean. I'd say it's the beginning of crunchiness... Mmm... interesting. I might go for the Cornell. This one tickles me a lot... Thanks!



I gig with a cornell 18/20 and a 2x12 50-60 times a year. Mostly pubs and clubs but also a couple of outdoor festivals. We are a three piece so I'm not fighting another guitarist but ive never had any problems volume wise. And my bass player uses a Gallien Kruger rig the size of a small country.

We mic the guitar for bigger venues but really for a spread of sound rather than a volume boost.

And like all truly great tube amps, the Cornell does clean up with you guitar volume if you roll it down to 2 or 3. Go on buy one. Thats what life is for big_smile

  • From: Detroit
  • Registered: 2006-06-02
  • Posts: 5,807

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

AD3THREE wrote:

On to the out door gig August 21!

I just played an outdoor gig at the Detroit Maker Faire on the Henry Ford Museum Grounds. They had a professional PA guy with wireless mics. and four small monitors. We each had one, but they didn't kick out a lot of volume.

Everyone in the crowd said they could hear our vocals just fine, and we had amps at "practice levels" which I consider gig volume... usually we get people saying all they can hear is guitar. We usually have to turn our amps up so people can't only hear drums  cool
Our guitar amps are 40 watt HRD and a 55 watt Rivera combo.

- Nic from Detroit... posting on JB's Forum since 6-2-2006
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  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

See we had the opposite problem last Friday people said that the vocals would sometimes be too loud and the band tried to get louder as the night went on.  It wasn't that much louder but you couldn't hear guitars well until someone stepped out for a solo which we might have had way too hot.  If I was smart I would have stepped away from my vocal mic to hear how loud we really were.  Oh well.  We have a guy mentoring us on PA equipment and we have most of the stuff we need for our outdoor gig, anyways he told us the PA isn't really a power boost but rather you get everybody on the same level and have someone man the board if a solo isn't loud enough he can turn you up, if your too loud he can turn you down either way thats really what I meant not keep one sound on my amp and expect the PA guy to do all the work.  Whats the fun in that?

AD3THREE's Website

  • From: York, PA
  • Registered: 2010-08-27
  • Posts: 1,749

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

I think the bottom line here is: small wattage amps and nothing through the PA except for vocals and the kick drum for some overall body.  My drummer has even used brushes hitting the drums normally as if he were using sticks.  It cuts down a lot of the loud snare noise. -S.

  • From: Pittsburgh
  • Registered: 2008-05-22
  • Posts: 261

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

I go from playing 20,000+ outdoor gigs to medium auditoriums of 1,500 to 3,500 all the way down to neighborhood bars and honestly from a stage perspective nothing changes.  I may bring a Boogie MkII combo instead of my Fuchs head/cab rig for space restrictions but even that doesn't save that much sapce and both are equal in volume.

The drummer is the key to where the stage volume is set.  If you mix around the drummer onstage then you should be fine.  If only vocals are in the PA, set the amps so that your solos will cut but for God sakes turn down when someone else ...either vocalist or another musician is trying to sing or solo. 

Granted, sometimes my amp's "sweet spot" is too loud for a room.  That's a compromise at best but yea, it may not be as punchy etc turned down, it still sounds good enough to do the gig.  Play and move on.

If you're really loud then the plexi shield thing works but sometimes it cuts the volume out front too much.  In small bars I find that when using a shield my stage volume is really loud but the sound doesn't cut through the mix.  It's trial and error, never the best situation but...it's music.

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  • Registered: 2008-10-27
  • Posts: 176

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

DannyG wrote:

If you're really loud then the plexi shield thing works but sometimes it cuts the volume out front too much.  In small bars I find that when using a shield my stage volume is really loud but the sound doesn't cut through the mix.

That's exactly what I have experienced with my plexi shield. Now I don't use it anymore unless I get mic'ed but that never happens... Plexi shield without being mic'ed is bad...

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 2,926

Re: Any tips on a small stage setup...?

We have a gig this weekend outside.  We tried a big setup outside a month ago which we thought we could get by with using DI Boxes straight to a mixing board.  Now we know that the sounds are totally colored by the speaker and doing that method will result in a very harsh tone.  So we got mics.  For this setup.  Do you think running a big setup with everything miced would be better in this situation then just doing it like that small room?  Volume doesn't seem to be a problem we can be as loud as we want here.  I'm trying to talk myself into this big setup for the other guys but I can't help thinking how much more a pain in the Butt it was to setup with not much more gainned.  This is our last gig for us for the year because we've all agree we need time off so I want to make sure we get this one right or we may decided not to do this as a group anymore.

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